Back to the
main site

 
 FAQFAQ    SearchSearch  RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The sole intent of this board is to provide an option to communicate quickly and effectively with the racing community. Any post considered to be mean-spirited in nature or contains false information will be deleted. Questions and comments are welcome and should be forwarded to spartanspeedway@gmail.com.
Click to View All Messages within 24 hours

shocks/suspensions
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Modifieds
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jim Leasure



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 907

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:21 am    Post subject: shocks/suspensions Reply with quote

There is on going conversation between local tracks regarding shocks, sway bars, etc. in the Mod division. If you would like to add your input please do so on this thread. If that doesn't appeal to you please email me at info@spartanspeedway.com.

There is a lot of interest in containing the cost of shocks and this is as good of time as any to get going on this complicated issue. It is something that will have some affect on all Mod drivers and it is more complicated than one would think so we are reaching out and using this forum to do so.

If you are thinking about purchasing shocks during the off season you should consider waiting until we sort out the details.

You must include your name with your comments.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony_Pastorino



Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think writing a rule to limit any part of racing equipment is going to be very complicated. You have to first consider what the main objectives are and whether writing a rule is really going to accomplish all of those objectives. Then you have to take a hard look at how this rule change is going to affect you current clients.

If you're main objective is to help cut costs for the racer, you have to consider a few things. Most of the current mod drivers already own shocks that will most likely be deemed illegal by the new rules. This is going to cost those drivers money, because now they are going to have to spend $400-$600 to replace shocks that are still good/usable.

I can spend less money and get the steel tubed, non valve able, non re-buildable, non adjustable shocks, but then I have to carry a ton of extra shocks if I want to adjust for track conditions, or in case I break one. Any time I want to try a new shock, I have to go out and buy one. If I step up and buy the re-buildable and re-valveable shocks, I can repair damaged shocks and simply re-valve them if I want to try something different as far as the set up. So, if the idea is that limiting us to the $100 shocks to "save the racer money", are you really saving us money?

I honestly think the best thing you can do to keep the Mod class growing and running strong is to leave the rules alone. My theory has always been that rule changes cost us all money. Guys like me that don't have a huge bank roll are put behind the 8 ball, because now I HAVE to go buy new shocks, when there isn't anything wrong with the ones that I have. Now I don't have as much money to buy tires, or make other repairs/upgrades that would actually allow me to compete better. You leave the rules alone, the slower guys without a lot of money will be able to improve slowly but surely.

Plus, if you make a shock rule that is only present at Spartan and not any other track, you are surely going to limit the amount of travelers that show up and race throughout the year. These guys are NOT going to buy new shocks just to race a couple times at Spartan.

Just my thoughts on this topic.

Sincerely,

Tony Pastorino Mod #89
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jim Leasure



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 907

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason Spartan, Kalamazoo and Owosso are even worried about the current shock rule is that we are trying to keep the playing field as even as possible. I don't think that any of us are as worried about today as we are about two years down the road.

We are learning that shock technology has really gone a long way and is constantly changing. We already have teams spending a ton on each corner.

What bothers track operators is the fact that some teams will have 85.00 dollar shocks and some teams will have a huge advantage with 600.00 plus shocks, thus giving a stream lined path to the pit falls of the Super Late Model Divisions.

Thanks for the facts Tony, we need to keep looking at this from everyone's perspective. By the way this is not a Spartan thing, it is a Spartan, Kalamazoo and Owosso thing. Jeff and Gary are talking to their drivers as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CC32



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Shocks, etc. Reply with quote

My view on this.....

Cost containment via shocks, swaybar size, etc, at Spartan is not an issue, nor needed.

I really don't believe that any Mod team with a 2010 feature win at Spartan has any serious money wrapped up in their shocks. No more money than having a good selection of closed steel body shocks. Infact probably less.

The current shock rules work well at Spartan.

I have seen some very out there setups on some Mods at tracks other than Spartan, which could be the cause of this issue.
Berlin having the most out there set ups, and maybe K-Zoo leaning in that direction to a lesser extent.
There are a few mods at these other tracks that are flat out faster than Mods have ever been before, qualifing times not thought possible are the new normal.

This shock talk is more likely a bid to render some of these new set ups useless IMHO.
Set ups that really come to life on bigger tracks, not our tight little 1/4 mile.

Unfortunately Spartan may have to go along with the majority to keep consistant rules abroad for Modifieds.

- Brian
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony_Pastorino



Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't realize there was more than one track in on this. If all/most tracks can work together, then I think something can be put together that will work.

I am not totally against shock, sway bar, suspension rules in general. I just don't want to have us be limited to buying the $60-$100 shocks, as I don't believe that will wind up costing anyone less money in the long run. I think it is worth buying the shocks that can be re-built and re-valved, but totally agree that $600 per corner is ridiculous.

I like the fact that you guys are thinking ahead on this and not just implementing these rules on a whim. I like the idea of this thread as well, because it is important to hear everyone's opinion so that the most realistic decision can be made. One that will suit the majority, as I know that there is no way that everyone will be happy...LOL

One more thing that will help our class, is to keep up with the teching. Other than this year, teching of our cars has been pretty much non existent. I was pleasantly surprised to see guys checking things on our cars, other than weight and ride height. I am happy to make sure my car is legal, as long as I know everyone else is as well. Implementing rules and enforcing them are two different things.

Tony P.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
governor72



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 213
Location: Charlotte

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject: shock rules Reply with quote

I agree with Brian that for the most part the shocks being used at Spartan are not the high dollar units seen at some other tracks. But if some limitations are not put in place we will soon see the migration of those set ups to Spartan.

The few with these setups who came to Spartan this year, came very few times and had not yet hit the correct setup. But trust me if limitations are not put in place we will soon see these setups shine at Spartan as they have at some other tracks.

These setups when hit on WILL work on a flat 1/4 mile. I have seen this setup lower the Mod track record at Galesburg by a substantial number.

How quickly some have forgoten how quick Bozell was at the Brian Henney race after only a few races on that car, which went on to lower the Kalamazoo track record numerous times this summer down into the 13.32 range. The speed that car had forced others to make investments in shocks just to compete. I ran there all year long and saw this first had.

At Kalamazoo on the last night of the year I saw a driver that had started on the pole numerous time and barley lead a lap, lead 17-18 laps on the last points race. Guess what, this was done after spending many $$$ on shocks and renting the track, shock testing all day, until the setup was hit on. There are few that have the resources to do that.

At Berlin these set ups have enabled the track record to be lowered by almost 1/2 second in one year and that is with the same tire that has been being used, that is a huge number on tracks of this size.

Granted this is not the sole factor in these records going so low, but it was a huge factor.

I feel the bump stops, be they on the shock shaft or a chassis mounted stop should not be allowed, front or rear. Should there be some consideration in limiting the sway bar size? I think so. There also needs to be some more research done on what shocks could be setup with an internal bump stop and a test fixture that could be used to compress these to check for an internal stop.

I don't think we need to outlaw any of the current rebuildable shocks as Toni hits on the positive points of having less inv with a rebuildable unit.

But we do need to make sure we don't allow the external adjustable shocks that some were using at Kalamazoo and Berlin.

There were teams that decided to setout 1/2 way thru the season at Kalamazoo & Berlin as they could not afford the setup that it took to be competitive. Some teams also did not attend some USA Mod shows for the very same reason, as they had also let the shock rule get out of control. The USA series is also in communication with the MI promotors on this topic as Keith is also motivated to help control these cost that have some teams parked or only attending certain tracks.

What ever changes that are decide on should also have the option to make adjustments based on keeping teams on more of a level playing field.

Dan Logan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flying14



Joined: 29 Aug 2009
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know when i got into the mods i called AJ at outlaw and asked what would be an economical but yet effective shock package for my car. he told me that the QA1 rebuildable would be the best shock, and did 4 shocks for me custom built for my car for 300 bucks.

Kazoo and Berlin are the wildest of the tracks with shocks, but they allow any racing shock without a canister, and i know integra builds a double adjustable non-canister shock at the tune of expensive, like 800 per shock.

the spartan rule is a good rule however the track may want to institute a 250 dollar shock claim rule. anyone on the lead lap can claim someone in the top 5 for examples shocks for 250 bucks each. i know the USA rule is a 250 dollar racers cost limit, but its ineffective IMO. as long as the outside of the shock looks to be under 250 dollars it's legal, this does nothing to stop a guy from changing the internals around and doing new pistons and etc.... the claim rule would be the only way to cure this, bring what ever shocks you dare sell.

This is just my opinion however, and i have limited time behind the wheel in the mods.

Thanks,
Kyle Drake.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CC32



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:30 am    Post subject: Shocks. Reply with quote

Another good rule to implement maybe.

- Upper control arms mounts can be moved, but must remain on top side of factory front clip surface.

Starting to see mods with upper A's mounted very low on the side of chassis. Currently legal per USA rules.

Also have been seing some strange looking spindles in use. Only detail I have been able to get is they can be ordered from North Carolina, and it's a six week lead time to get them. I suspect they are custom cast pieces.

-Brian
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flying14



Joined: 29 Aug 2009
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Shocks. Reply with quote

CC32 wrote:
Another good rule to implement maybe.

- Upper control arms mounts can be moved, but must remain on top side of factory front clip surface.

Starting to see mods with upper A's mounted very low on the side of chassis. Currently legal per USA rules.


-Brian


I agree, Must mount on top side of frame rail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jim Leasure



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 907

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about the sway bars? How many are NOT running OEM or OEM style bars? BTW OEM style to me means the "same as".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flying14



Joined: 29 Aug 2009
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OEM or OEM style bars are pretty much the same, not running an OEM or OEM style would infer that someone is running a three piece splined bar,

http://howeracing.com/p-7635-splined-sway-bar-assembly.aspx = NON OEM or OEM style.

http://howeracing.com/p-7636-original-howe-design-sway-bars.aspx = OEM Style bar.

Keep with the OEM or OEM style rule, i don't see a lot of changing that needs to happen to that aspect of the rule. just say no non oem style three piece sway bars.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jim Leasure



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 907

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So are there some out there? Mike might know that answer and I have an email into him. I am just waiting for a reply.

Does an enhanced shock set up need a modified sway bar system to work properly?

Does running "bump stop" have some degree of long term health issues with a driver? Because of racing w/o suspension?

Just questions Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flying14



Joined: 29 Aug 2009
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to take advantage of a BB/SS or bump stop package a bigger bar is needed, Brian may be able to chim in more accurately here. the larger sway bar doesn't cost much, and isn't illegal because you can get stock GM sway bars that vary from .81 to 1.5 inches (anyone wanna use a Yukon Denali bar? lol). but the big thing for the package the part that really costs the money is the shock package. you have to go to an experienced shock builder and pay for his knowledge multiple times or you need to read every arcticle you can and then purchase everything to do your own shocks, either way it adds up to a lot of money.

OEM and OEM Style 1 piece sway bars cost the same, and come in many sizes to tune your setup.

Shocks = 159-250 dollars for the bodies
New Pistons and Valve Stacks to hold up to the increased rebound of the Bump Stop or BB/SS setups = 500-2400 bucks for the package, however exotic you care to get.
Bump Stops, Cups, Shims and so on = 175-300 dollars

if you can build your own shocks you can save some money in the long run but the up front cost is larger.

Springs and sway bars cost the same or very close to it for what ever rate you choose.

as for health effects of a bump stop setup i don't know if there are any other than maybe a sore back but then again with being belted in tightly it can't be to bad because the energy of the rough ride will go through you instead of being absorbed by the driver.

the only real way i see of policing the shocks with modern rebuildable shocks and being able to cut shocks apart and revalve them is to put a realistic cost, 250 per shock i feel is very fair.

the rule could read something like this,

Quote:
Racing Shocks are legal. no external canisters or adjustment. 1 shock per wheel. 250 dollar per shock claim.
Anyone in the top five may be claimed by any driver outside the top five and finishing on the lead lap. All four wheel shocks must be claimed at the same time, no claiming of individual shocks.

No external bump stop kit.

(Bump Stops and related accessories on the shock shaft(s) are to be included.)**

Refusal to sell will result in disqualification and loss of points and money for the evening and carry a 2 week suspension


I add the ** there because the big money isn't in the bump stops and could be removed easily because of the removable rod ends on the rebuildable shock.

I am in no way a big fan of claiming anything, but i see no other way of preventing people from putting expensive trick illegal pistons and valve stacks inside of a legal body and being assumed legal. there is no other way of the track teching this without becoming their shock shop and disassembling shocks and verifying internals and bodies match.

Just my opinion,
Kyle.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TOM HERNLY JR



Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record--I would not change anything in our current rules other than the shock must retail for less than $200.00-$250.00. We have the most popular class. With $800.00 to win we would have b-mains. The tire is the great equalizer. There is alot more to going fast than having high $$$ shocks,springs and sway bars. If K-zoo and Berlin had more cars the same guys would not win every week. It's not the shocks and sway bars that keep people away from those tracks...Lets keep building what we have. I would be interested in a round table meeting on the subject.


Tom Jr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cost savings should be the number one priority. A $250 shock rule is too much. $1000 for one set of shocks is too much money to spend. Plus, it's too hard to tech whether a shock is legal or not when it's based on the retail price. It becomes something that must be researched.

The track doesn't have a $115 tire rule. No, it has a spec tire and everyone is happy with that. So, there should also be a spec shock. And it should not be any of the special trick shocks that are available. It should be something like the inexpensive AFCO shocks for $65 retail cost. They can be bought for less than that from a dealer.

There should only be about 3 choices for a front shock and 3 choices for a rear shock as far as allowable damping. That way, no large inventory is needed. The shocks are welded steel body shocks and have identifiable numbers on them. If they appear to have been tampered with in any way, they are illegal. Same deal with the tires, tamper with them and they are illegal.

Force the drivers to play with springs, swaybars, chassis adjustments, tire pressures, stagger, and driver ability and eliminate the out of control shock absorber game.

I have no say so in this any longer, so please ignore the above.

-Maurice
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> Modifieds All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group