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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mopar93 wrote:
lansingsportsrage.com wrote:
John.. assuming that the 12v head is illegal (even though it shouldn't be), putting a 8v head on it would make it legal would it not ?


Patrick, I know it's none of my business anymore, but the Pony Stock class has always required the car to have an engine that was available for that particular model. So, if a car only came with 12 valves, you can't put an 8 valve head on it.

-Maurice
Well.. the 626 did come with an 8v head.. just it was in 83 thru 87.

So.. like taking a G-head, and putting it on a common block motor (G-Head never came mated to a common block) with a 93 MPI intake (never available with a G-Head).. its mixing and matching "stock parts" from multiple years and multiple models.. which has been allowed correct ?
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well.. the 626 did come with an 8v head.. just it was in 83 thru 87.


I'm not going to spend time researching the bodies for the Mazdas, but if the 88 and newer bodies are still the same basic sheetmetal as the 83-87 bodies, then converting the later body to an 8V engine would be allowable. But if the bodies are distinctly different, then it's not allowed.

In other words, once you strip all the mouldings, headlights, taillights, and other trim and the car looks like an 83-87, then it's OK. But, if I'm not mistaken, I think the bodies are different. Isn't 1988 about the time the Ford Contour came along? The Contour is identical to a Mazda 626.

-Maurice
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 83 to 87 and 87 to 92 share the same basic appearance I think ??

Gen2 (83-87)


Gen2 (87-92)


Wikipedia does indicate a change in wheelbase of 66mm
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick,

If the wheelbase is different, then it's a different car. It's about 2.5 inches difference in wheelsbase.

The Pony Stocks and FWD Pure Stocks aren't treated like the RWD Pure Stocks. You must match the engine to the body.

On the other hand, I vote for taking a look at some different models such as the 12 valve Mazda and possibly allowing them. I was going to do that at Springport this year if I was still running it. Some of the older cars are getting hard to come by.

-Maurice
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Sortabigg



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Originally from Bath MI

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: 1991 Reply with quote

its a 1991 i believe. the second picture posted.
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you really wanna run spartan with this car. And Dan really wanted to run spartan with his cavi.

Both car are illegal to the rules posted. You still spent the money and or time to get/build these cars. You then proceed to raise a stink that the cars are not legal but you have them so they should be?

Maybe printing off the rules first and getting a car to match would be a better idea?

And call it what you want Dodges run up front in the class for a reason. Before the Neons were allowed wasn't it a Shadow and an Aries that everyone hated?

I do agree there should be some consessions made for some 12 valve cars. I can say however there is a reason you don't see many Fords racing. Maybe it's time to think about what those reasons are.
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lansingsportsrage.com wrote:

So.. like taking a G-head, and putting it on a common block motor (G-Head never came mated to a common block) with a 93 MPI intake (never available with a G-Head).. its mixing and matching "stock parts" from multiple years and multiple models.. which has been allowed correct ?


Not that I'm aware of. The engine combination has always matched the model.

Although, there have probably been a couple of teams who have done something they shouldn't. For instance, one team put a 2.5 engine in a Dodge Omni one year. Omni's never came with the 2.5, only the 1.6, 1.7, and 2.2. Once it was discovered, he didn't race it again.

-Maurice
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G-Head (casting 287, made 1983 - 1985) never came on a 2.5 common block (made 89+) either right ?

Bet you'll find that combination at the track though..

and I don't have a problem with that either, I think those kind of swaps should be allowed.
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Sortabigg



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Originally from Bath MI

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:10 pm    Post subject: mazda Reply with quote

Wouldn't it be funny if this Mazda deal was all a hoax? And someone just made it up to get a rise outta people? That would be funny! Laughing
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Dennis ONeil



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 423
Location: Eaton Rapids

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You caught a big carp didn't ya?

And a few minnows?
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:04 pm    Post subject: illegal cars Reply with quote

daytonapony wrote:
So you really wanna run spartan with this car. And Dan really wanted to run spartan with his cavi.

Both car are illegal to the rules posted. You still spent the money and or time to get/build these cars. You then proceed to raise a stink that the cars are not legal but you have them so they should be?

Maybe printing off the rules first and getting a car to match would be a better idea?

And call it what you want Dodges run up front in the class for a reason. Before the Neons were allowed wasn't it a Shadow and an Aries that everyone hated?

I do agree there should be some consessions made for some 12 valve cars. I can say however there is a reason you don't see many Fords racing. Maybe it's time to think about what those reasons are.
what is illegal about dans car? because it is a stick? it is a 2.2 and not a overhead cam engine. how is it that someone lobbied 16v neons yet a 16 valve probe isnt allowed.? i can name 2 reasons but i wont. dan picked a cavi because it was priced right and they were everywhere when Neons were being bought at 450-800 bucks. wasnt it a shadow or aries that was winning? why of course but any fool could see they werent stock pony cars.with heads and different intakes put on those engines. i guess it just depends at what percentage your car is illegal. 20-40 percent illegal is ok but to outlaw a 12 valve engine when you are allowing a 16 valve now is absurd. sorry for all the maurerism( sorry Dick) but what the help! Confused come on guys this has been the paris hilton group setting these rules up. i truly beleive that all 16 valve engines should be allowed IF they arent twin cam engines. what about a esslinger 2.3 aluminum headed race engine that will turn 8700 rpm and produce 300 horsepower thats ok isnt it in a tempo? call yourselve the SCCA of spartan. my rant my rave fire away.oldgold
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superfast14



Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: illegal cars Reply with quote

oldgold wrote:
what about a esslinger 2.3 aluminum headed race engine that will turn 8700 rpm and produce 300 horsepower


First off, Esslinger products suck, Go with Race Engineering - I know, I've went down both alleys. Mustangs are the way to go... Laughing
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: illegal cars Reply with quote

oldgold wrote:
daytonapony wrote:
So you really wanna run spartan with this car. And Dan really wanted to run spartan with his cavi.

Both car are illegal to the rules posted. You still spent the money and or time to get/build these cars. You then proceed to raise a stink that the cars are not legal but you have them so they should be?

Maybe printing off the rules first and getting a car to match would be a better idea?

And call it what you want Dodges run up front in the class for a reason. Before the Neons were allowed wasn't it a Shadow and an Aries that everyone hated?

I do agree there should be some consessions made for some 12 valve cars. I can say however there is a reason you don't see many Fords racing. Maybe it's time to think about what those reasons are.
what is illegal about dans car? because it is a stick? it is a 2.2 and not a overhead cam engine. how is it that someone lobbied 16v neons yet a 16 valve probe isnt allowed.? i can name 2 reasons but i wont. dan picked a cavi because it was priced right and they were everywhere when Neons were being bought at 450-800 bucks. wasnt it a shadow or aries that was winning? why of course but any fool could see they werent stock pony cars.with heads and different intakes put on those engines. i guess it just depends at what percentage your car is illegal. 20-40 percent illegal is ok but to outlaw a 12 valve engine when you are allowing a 16 valve now is absurd. sorry for all the maurerism( sorry Dick) but what the help! Confused come on guys this has been the paris hilton group setting these rules up. i truly beleive that all 16 valve engines should be allowed IF they arent twin cam engines. what about a esslinger 2.3 aluminum headed race engine that will turn 8700 rpm and produce 300 horsepower thats ok isnt it in a tempo? call yourselve the SCCA of spartan. my rant my rave fire away.oldgold


Dan had a stick right? What was the rules? So it wasn't legal? HMMMM

And what are your reasons? Please share them.

The Shadow and the Aries are still running now with the same intakes and basically the same motors too. The magical intake you speak of is the same as the Cavi uses. Should they not be allowed to then because they have a better intake setup? The heads there really isn't a big difference at all. Say what you want one of my teammates had the "bad" head and I had the "good" head (casting numbers as they should be) and he made as much ore more power then me. The heads were the only thing different. We have those "magical" intakes and stock shortblocks. The other thing to remember that "magic" intake was never on the Aries. It had a carburetor on it and still does.

Build a 12v Ford. I will in all honesty stand as high on the soap box for them as you are. Just don't be anything close to mad when the Dodges and Cavi's slap you down off it. There is a REASON the legal Fords are not being run. Maybe figure that out before being upset about the ones not being let in.

You go ahead and build that 300hp engine costing you 5g's plus. Then go ahead and put it in a Ford tempo. When everyone is going 8mph faster then you in the corners you might realize why noone runs a Ford. Good example of this is Art Kimble. He had as much or more motor then anyone when it was running right. He ran 21.1-4 every night. Guess what with less motor I went all the way down to a 19.82. HMMMMMM Maybe it's not the motor?


You can have a big motor. You have have 12 valves or 16 valves. Run a Ford and you'll understand why it's not all motor.

I am a VERY good example of it not being the motor that makes a car fast. I had a "built" motor in the car when I got it. (I say built because it was worse then a stock rebuild. It was a JOKE of a motor) I rebuilt it using literly all stock parts. Stock crank, rods, pistons, a stock head with stock valves, stock springs stock cam stock cam gear, stock exhaust manifold and a "MAGIC" intake with a stock tb and injectors. The first week out with this motor I ran a 21.8. I got to work on the suspension (again a joke of a suspension) put all stock parts in it that I figure out how I wanted them to work. I ended up dropping TWO seconds with the same motor. The only difference through the season was I optimized timing.

Build what you would like there are reasons the Neons were allowed. If you want to build a car that will be more expensive then by all means go ahead. If your not as fast do not complain about it being unfair you picked your car.
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Metz Racing #79
Team Beacon
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2010 and 2011 Pony stock Track Champion
15.23 Fastest FWD lap ever at Spartan on fun night.
15.872 Fastest pony stock lap during the season.
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Sortabigg



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Originally from Bath MI

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:38 am    Post subject: oh boy.... Reply with quote

You got alot of wind.....and alot of bull. You need the full story before you make such comments.
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~~~~Steve "Big Daddy" Orta~~~~
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And her sister is here!
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:43 am    Post subject: Re: oh boy.... Reply with quote

Sortabigg wrote:
You got alot of wind.....and alot of bull. You need the full story before you make such comments.


Which comments am I uninformed on? I am always one to retract my statements if shown differently.
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Metz Racing #79
Team Beacon
Never Dead Racing
2010 and 2011 Pony stock Track Champion
15.23 Fastest FWD lap ever at Spartan on fun night.
15.872 Fastest pony stock lap during the season.
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