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chuck ewing



Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can use a ford 9" if the 9" came OEM in at car, not the 8.8' rear end ( Fords,Lincoln or Mercurys) .You always can bring the old Street Stocks and run them in Sportsman if you want to. ( Stock Rear Ends for Pure Stocks)
Chuck
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monzilla80



Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Holt

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was really looking at getting rid of this 7.5". The only other option is a 8.8". They arent much better. I do agree with the C-clip eliminator idea.
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject: ??? Reply with quote

chuck ewing wrote:
You can use a ford 9" if the 9" came OEM in at car, not the 8.8' rear end ( Fords,Lincoln or Mercurys) .You always can bring the old Street Stocks and run them in Sportsman if you want to. ( Stock Rear Ends for Pure Stocks)
Chuck
you mean i can move my nearly stock car up to a division that has 3 link rears, screw jacks and $10,000 motors? no thanks ill go to dirt where they have MSPA rules that are set to allow a 9 inch because of saftey . ps remember i have a $400 dollar engine that must pull vacuum and, cam that must meet lift requirements and most guys in sportsman have more in their oil pans and valvesprings than i am required to have for pure stock. the only reason i asked was for the availability of gears for my tranny as i dont have a supply of turbo 350s just powerglides. and or 700R4 and metric 200 thanks anyway oldgold
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KT



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 144

PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who has $10,000 engines in the sportsman class at Springport and Spartan? I always hear these kinds of figures thrown around and wonder how people know and who has them. I help a guy who runs sportsman at Spartan, I wonder if it is him?
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:02 am    Post subject: thoughts Reply with quote

If i move up to a division that i cant win in would it be ok if i bought late model tires and ran in the rear so i would be out of everyones way and just collect my start money? i could probaby run 2 laps before i was in the way.KT if you think i am way off base on $10,000 would $4500 in a pure stock be way off base? with a callies crank oliver rods and srp pistons and stock appearing heads from brezenski ? maybe your guy doesnt have that much money in his byt some do. oldgold
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KT



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 144

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just wondering who has the $10,000 engine in the sportsman class? Heck now I'm curious who has the $4500 engine in the pure stock class.

In my opinion the pure stock class started out wrong in the first place. It should've just been either RWD or FWD only then let it grow like the pony class. I also agree that the 9" ford rearend or c-clip eliminators should be allowed for safety reasons. I would almost say make it manditory, except some teams can't afford one. What happens when a tire with the axle still attached comes off and spears someone? What do you think the insurance company is going to say?
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:14 am    Post subject: 9 inch Reply with quote

thank you
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Champ2x36



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Auburn, IN

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 9" Reply with quote

Sortabigg wrote:
Does a 9" give a big difference in performance over a GM Rear end?


If it's mounted with better suspension geometry it can be a big advantage, it will give a lot more forward bite.

Sortabigg wrote:
Gears are gears?


Having so many choices can be advantageous when you can tune the engine RPM very closely to the engine.
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:00 am    Post subject: chuck Reply with quote

check your pm on the dirt tire pressures oldgold
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: 9" Reply with quote

Champ2x36 wrote:
Sortabigg wrote:
Does a 9" give a big difference in performance over a GM Rear end?
icould do the same to my 7.5

If it's mounted with better suspension geometry it can be a big advantage, it will give a lot more forward bite.

Sortabigg wrote:
Gears are gears?


Having so many choices can be advantageous when you can tune the engine RPM very closely to the engine.
with a low performance engine 2.41 rpm to low 2.56closer, 2.73 to high. 241 great with a 421 engine 2.73 great with a 355 with good rods and rotating assembly but not cheap with any reliability and be able to pull vacuum and lift.(see what i mean) I didnt want to zing a tranny in low, gear it for 2nd or high gear. oldgold Smile
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Champ2x36



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Auburn, IN

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldgold wrote:
I could do the same to my 7.5


Yes, you could, but not within the rules, nor the spirit and intent of a PURE STOCK class.

Quote:
with a low performance engine


Which the metric cars came with, and which you are supposed to run in a PURE STOCK class

Quote:
2.41 rpm to low 2.56closer, 2.73 to high.


There's your answer, run 2.56 and be as close to the optimum as you can within the rules. The jump in RPM from 2.41 to 2.56, or 2.56 to 2.73 will probably be around 400 RPM. If the jump from 2.56 to 2.73 is too much for your engine, then you won't be giving up much, if any, by running less than 400 RPM under your optimum RPM. Often performance is enhanced by lowering the RPM to better match the power curve of the engine.

Quote:
with a low performance engine 2.41 rpm to low 2.56closer, 2.73 to high. 241 great with a 421 engine 2.73 great with a 355 with good rods and rotating assembly but not cheap with any reliability and be able to pull vacuum and lift.(see what i mean) I didnt want to zing a tranny in low, gear it for 2nd or high gear.


A 421 NEVER came in ANY CAR, and isn't cheap in ANY configuration because it's a stroker engine. Some are built with crankshafts that cost more than a brand new Goodwrench 350 longblock. 355's with the parts you've specified never came stock either, and certainly aren't cheap. But, the goal of the PURE STOCK class is to be a cheap class, so neither of those engines meets the rules, spirit, or intent of the PURE STOCK class. You say they can't be cheap with any reliability. I disagree, if raced within the limitations of a stock engine, and RPM are kept to a reasonable level (6000 RPM for a SBC). I've raced a number of SBC's over the years that came out of cars with well over 100,000 miles, one had over 200,000 miles. With a set of new valve springs, and a cheap cam with hydraulic lifters, I've had them last thru almost 3 race seasons before they self-destructed enough to make them not worth fixing. I always kept them under 6000 RPM. How much more reliability do you insist on in a budget class? 2 of those engines, when they were disassembled, were 350's that came with the 1.72" intake valves, not even the 1.94" intakes, and they both won multiple feature races.

As far as not wanting to run the tranny in low instead of 2nd or high gear, if you didn't feel that there were an advantage why would it make any difference to you? Why would you campaign for mods to allow that?

A racer that would consider building/using an engine like either of those you've mentioned shows they have no intentions of running within the letter, spirit, or intent of a PURE STOCK class. They are not part of the solution of building the PURE STOCK class, they are part of the problem, a racer that will build/race a modified car in a beginner/budget class, discouraging the true beginning/budget racer from building a car/competing because they know they have little or no chance to win.

In your previous posts you've said you don't want to run in the sportsman class because you have little or no chance to win against them, but you are campaigning for mods to a PURE STOCK class car that would put other competitors in the same position that you don't want to be in yourself. You've also stated that if you can't have the mods you want that you're going to run the dirt. Seems you're only supporting the class as long as the rules are set up to your advantage.
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Sortabigg



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Originally from Bath MI

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject: pure vs. sports Reply with quote

Champ, Do you race here? If not, don't worry about it. It's taken care of. Rules have alot of gray areas, especially these ones. We just wanted to get down to it and ask some tough questions. Get on someone for it is not cool. You are directing these "mean SPIRITED" words to someone that has raced darn near 40 years.
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Champ2x36



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Auburn, IN

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: pure vs. sports Reply with quote

Sortabigg wrote:
Champ, Do you race here? If not, don't worry about it. It's taken care of. Rules have alot of gray areas, especially these ones. We just wanted to get down to it and ask some tough questions. Get on someone for it is not cool. You are directing these "mean SPIRITED" words to someone that has raced darn near 40 years.


Sortabigg, no I don't race at Spartan or Springport. I do worry about the sport, and the future of the sport that I have been a part of since 1965. My driving career lasted 30+ years, and only ended when I had a spinal fusion, a result of a racing accident years earlier. Since then I've helped out a number of other racers, including some new ones. I've put my stepson and wife in a car for a couple of years, and gave them some great experiences and memories from behind the wheel. I'm hoping someday in the not very distant future to be able to do the same for my grandchildren. I'm a guy that is interested enough in Spartan/Springport Speedways to have driven 120+ miles each way to and from the the Spartan/Springport rules meetings the year Jim was setting up the Pure Stock class (was unable to attend Maurice's meeting last year or I would have been there), and to have occasionally driven over 100 miles each way to attend races at Springport the last couple of years to support the track. My present job in Fort Wayne puts races on Fridays at Spartan out of reach to attend, time and distance wise. So, to tell me that I should not worry about it is an unproductive attitude, and it just isn't going to happen.

My remarks were not intended to be "mean spirited" to another racer in any way. If I've misinterpreted oldgold's comments I will stand corrected (but they did seem pretty clearcut). But, I do have very strong opinions and feelings about this. To allow the PURE STOCK class to become a class where experienced racers are using everything in their "bag of tricks" to dominate over the true beginning/budget racer goes against the intent and spirit of the class, and is very counterproductive. Our sport is in hard times, due to many different factors. The economy, gas prices, expense of racing in general, and many other factors have closed many tracks, and driven many competitors to drop in class, or leave the sport entirely. It's deterred many more from even entering the sport. Spartan and Springport are 2 great tracks. Spartan is fighting reduced car and fan counts (like every track), and Springport is fighting to even exist as an ongoing race facility. To keep racing alive and prosperous, new racers need to be drawn into the sport. Few will start out in the premier classes, the budget classes are where the vast majority of racers of tomorrow are going to come from. That's why I feel support classes are so VERY IMPORTANT to the future of our sport, I can't stress that enough. It's also why I feel it is important to keep the "stock" classes stock. Racing is a very expensive past-time, time and money wise, even in the budget classes. To allow the experienced racer to use all their knowledge and tricks to build far superior cars makes it even harder for the beginning/budget racer. With many (maybe most), when they're first starting, just to be able to race is good enough. But, after a time, if they can't be competitive they get discouraged and lose interest, and drop out of the sport.

To address your statement that "Rules have alot of gray areas, especially these ones." I don't believe these rules are all that gray. I'll point out a few things from the rules, and I'll underline key parts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice # 1: The Pure Stock division is new for the 2008 season. It was added in an attempt to provide a more affordable option to racing. Due to the many makes and models available for use, restrictions and minor changes may need to take place during the season as we learn more about this new division.

Notice #2: Any interpretations of the rules are left to the officials, whose decisions are final. Just because it is not written, does not mean you can do it. The two words to remember in this class are STOCK ONLY. In the event a car is deemed to have illegal parts the car is subject to being banned from all future race events. The driver is subject to loss of points to date, all prize money for the night and suspension from property.

These sections make very plain the intent of the Pure Stock class, to be STOCK ONLY. The mods being asked for are NOT STOCK.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Body and Chassis section:

The vehicle must remain in its original form. No alterations are allowed unless specifically stated in these rules. (See notice #3)

p) No frame alterations of any kind, except the rear frame rail may be replaced with square tubing if rusted out or bent from spring pocket back (at the discretion of the officials).

q) Stock appearing springs allowed, front and rear must be the same on both sides and equal. No spacer or cup adjustments of any kind allowed.

It's plain that the chassis and suspension is not to be modded, and that springs are supposed to be the same on both sides, not have a 100 - 200 pound split between front springs, with proportionate splits on the back springs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From the Engine section:

a) Stock only to that make and model. No after market add on parts. Stock air cleaner. May use after market valve covers. No turbocharged or supercharged.

b) Strictly stock or stock replacement heads only. No camel-back heads.

d) Engine may be rebuilt to stock specs; no more than .030 clean up allowed with OEM style pistons. No made for racing pistons allowed.

It's plain that engines are not to be modded and built with performance parts. It says "Engines may be rebuilt to STOCK SPECS, and that wouldn't include "good rods and rotating assemby" (unless they are stock spec pieces in good shape).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know, maybe I should do like you seem to think I should, sortabigg. I'm an old man who doesn't actively compete anymore, so maybe I should just sit on the sidelines and not contribute to the sport I've been a part of since I was a teenager. But...............I don't think it's going to happen.
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Last edited by Champ2x36 on Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Sortabigg



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Originally from Bath MI

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:00 pm    Post subject: rules... Reply with quote

Like I stated earlier, It's all been taken care of. No need to go on and on. We got our answers.
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Big Ed



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 205

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a DISCUSSION board. Everyone's opinions and comments ARE welcomed.

It makes no difference whether you race at our tracks or not.

Some people could learn a lot from Champs post and opinions.
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