[schinde]

Maurice wrote,

"Just stating some of my own observations in order to keep everyone calmed down. "

Your observations are always sound, and should be kept in the forefront of everyone's minds when thinking about racing.

You prove it over and over again, Maurice.

have a good day,

schinde
_________________
Short track racing is more fun than a human being ought to be allowed to have!

[tricknology]

In my humble opinion,,,

It has been proven that a restricted exhaust system rules that have been used at Flat rock on SS , AC Lead sleds, and Spartan FWD 4 cyl Neons,,,

1) Evens up the high dollar /high powered engines with the low dollar/low tech engines .

2) Does not adversly effect the durability of a engine, in fact because the engines turn less RPM and make less HP, they last longer between rebuilds.

3) Makes cheater carbs, manifolds, Heads, and cams less effective.

4) Is easy to tech, and is self policeing by other racers.

5) Is easy to install.

6) Costs very little money.

In FR SS we have guys that have over $12,000 in their engines and can not out run engines that cost only $4,000 to build.

I know because I have helped build both types of engines.

The reason is,,

Stock cast Iron EX. manifolds,, with dual exhaust outlets,,But the Maximum exhaust OD is only 2 inches.

NO engine at FR turns over 6,300 Rpm due to the restricted Exhaust system. they just stop making more power over 6,000 rpm.

If FR allowed Headers and big Ex pipes these engines would make power to over 7,000 RPM.

Lower RPM = less costs to build.

Lower RPM = long lasting engines.

Also the cars have very little down force, no spoilers allowed, If you have a lot of power all you do is spin the tires.

Most of your cars already have headers, so going to a Stock Cast iron Ex. manifold may not be popular.

But restricting the Ex. outlets would possibly work well,,,what you need is a TEST.

Perhaps do a test,, you already know about what time each sportsman car will do from the seasons transponder data.

Get a top 10 sportsman car,,,run laps with several SIZE types of restricted Ex. outlets. installed.,,,2 inch od, 1 3/4 inch O.D. 1 1/2 inch O.D.

see how much they slow down.

Then get a slower sprotsman car and install the same restricted ex. outlets and see what happens.

The top ten big bucks car will slow down a lot more than the mid pack low buck car.

Everybody loses some power, but the big buck car loses the most.

this evens up the competition.

Maybe,,,Let em keep their Big carbs, Racing manifolds, and cheater heads,,,Just kill em with exhaust restrictions.

Arnold.

[lansingsportsrage.com]

I don't know how anyone can argue that logic.. and it seems easy enough to test and wouldn't hardly cost anything to do the test.

[Bardenracing42]

The only thing I would add to what Arnold is saying about the exhaust; TIRES are a great equalizer. Get rid of the racing tires. They are more expensive only last about 2 nights and allow the big motors a huge advantage in hooking up to the track.

I know this upsets the apple cart a little, because the track sells tires, and has a tire guy that has been very good to them over the years. But we are trying to cut costs. What better way to cut costs than to make us run a tire that costs half as much and last 3 to 4 times as long? If the track wants to designate a spec street tire and sell it to us, fine. Just look at this as a way to cut the costs and even the playing field.

Guys, I know the carb/manifold rule change seems like an added cost right now, but it doesn't kick in until next season. That is like 8 months to get a line on the carb and the intake. I certainly see your gripe, and I was one of the ones fighting against opening the rules up when they did it after the '04 season, but what's done is done. But try to look at from the perspective of at least this move goes back to cheaper equipment. I'm sure it isn't going to make people happy and your concerns are fair but as jerry said, we've got to make some changes because the car counts have declined since the rules were opened up for '05.

As has been hinted at, I can see the current RWD pure stocks being absorbed into the street stocks by 2009 (if not next year). I'm not real crazy about this, but if it's what is needed to be done then I will just find a way.

I just hope we all can sacrifice a little for the survival of racing as we know it. Refer back to Jerry's post and look at what might be happening in Owosso. That could be us if we don't work together even if we don't like the changes.

[tricknology]

Also Restricted Exhaust sytems do not blow up or wear out,,,

Here are some pics of STOCK Chevy V8 cast iron exhaust manifolds that are cheap.

IMHO if everybody had to run a Stock Cast iron manifold with a rear outlet ( no center dump outlet) from a chevy, dodge, or ford pickup truck, or car,,, with a 2 inch maximum outlet,,all the engines would be not make power above 6,000 rpm... most folks can get used stock truck exhaust manifold for free OR for ...

$45 new,,,stock cast iron 1988 to 1995 Chevy V8 Truck exh. manifold, left side.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevy-Truck-Sierra-Jimmy-V8-RT-Exhaust-Manifold-88-95_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33632QQihZ019QQitemZ8050410334


Pick of right manifold,,$45 new,,,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevy-GMC-Truck-Suburban-V8-RT-Exhaust-Manifold-96-00_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33632QQihZ019QQitemZ8050703833


Most FR SS run the higher performing Corvette Cast iron ex. maniflod with center dump outlets,, see pics below $65 new each...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevy-Corvette-5-7L-5-4L-Left-Exhaust-Manifold-64-71_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33632QQihZ019QQitemZ8050410044

[tricknology]

PS,,,

already All of your RWD Factory stock ( lead sled ) type cars currently run a Stock Cast iron manifold with a rear outlet ( no center dump outlet) from a chevy, dodge, or ford, pickup truck, or car,,, .

A center outlet Corvette manifold will not work on a FS,,,the engine is not set back enough and the center outlet will not clear the front crossmember.

In a FR SS or a sportsman car, the engine has been moved to the rear and a corvette's ex manifold's center outlet will clear the crossmember.

therefore,, the truck rear oulet manifolds will work on both sportsmans and FS, but the Corvette manifold will only fit a Sportsman car.

[tricknology]

Whittemore Speedway has been on a spec Street tire for years,,,

the Goodyear Regatta.

most agree that it has saved racing at Whittemore.

the LOCAL Goodyear dealer supplies the tires at a discount, and gives the track sponsorship money.

The track no longer has to buy and store tires,, = less work and overhead.

with more cars due to lower tire costs and with less overhead, and the sponcership money from the local goodyear dealer,,,the track says it is a better deal for the track than using racing tires.

[Bubber]

So after the 2008 season will there be a sportsman class? With the class going back to the old rules, that would eliminate most of us sportsman drivers from being able to convert our cars back to the orginal form. This is not because we wouldn't want too, but the damage of cutting everything out is done. (Front control arm pockets, firewalls, rearend brackets and upper and lower controls arm mounts) So the way I see it is that the people that spent thousands to support our track and the tracks ideas, are going to be out even more money because we will not be able to race. We are no longer legal for the old street stock class. If anybody thinks you can just sell the car, come and get it, I live in Stockbridge or just call 517-712-4703. How much do you think the #5,#01,#24,#16,#48,#61,#18,#47 will be worth now. Its not just the money these guys have spent but the thousands of hours working on these cars. I understand that they still might race the sportsman in 2009. I know the class is suffering and I'am ok with going back to 2bbl carbs and a intake to spec, but just don't make our cars yard ornaments.
Well heck if sportman class dies we can just move up to supers since our cars are worthless and I guess our motors wouldn't work in that class either (so we're out 10,000 to 15,000) we could just purchase a super late chassis and buy a crate motor (and be out just roughly 15,000) and support another rule change and find out 2-3 years later that we're just going to cancel it. NO THANKS,
BUBBER PATRICK

I know that in hard times tough decisions have to be made. So I wish Spartan Speedway the best of luck and I hope this really does save racing at Spartan. I just can no longer throw money down the SHI**ER
See you guys at the track, until I have to put her out to pasture.

[Jim Leasure]

The Sportsman that are worried about their car becoming obsolete in 09 can relax. I can't see the future, I can only guess, you know, try to figure things out and then take the best stab you can. I think most if not all are having a pretty fun year and I hope we can finish it that way. The word I used was subtle when I spoke of some changes. It is difficult to be specific right now because we are almost two years away from 09. Frankly I haven't even thought much about the Sportsman because this issue was about Supers. In 09 there could be 15 or 20 Sportsman then bingo, we are racing. I realize the time and money that has been spent on your cars and I respect that. I can't imagine Spartan obsoleting a division if there are enough cars to run a decent feature. All of our divisions are down a little, we just want to try to build them back up with out hurting anyones wallet.

[61SSracer]

Jim and ALL other readers,

PLEASE DONT see this as a Pissing match ~ i haven't drank enough water today to WIN ! !

First off MOST things at the drivers meeting CAN'T be heard with all the noise around, expecially the couple times you held us (Sportsman) later to discuss these issues, with the Latemodel driver sitting behind us REVING his engine because we were standing on the scales ! MAYBE this should have been talked about/told to us where/when we could ALL hear what is going on ! ! That's beside the point as the rule has Already been made, so moving on -- - - -- -


To answer your 2 questions:

1) Illegal heads ~ You ask if we should DQ 1/2 the guys for illegal heads, well they ARE ILLEGAL, but instead you are telling 80% + guys to change their carb and manifold to handle the problem with Illegal Heads ~ by the way NOW that i understand WHY the rules have been changed ~ There goes another $800 + to buy New illegal (legal ~ i'm confused) Heads plus another $1000 to get them Doctored up to be competitive with the other guys heads !

Let me see if i got this right ~IN MY OPINION ~

The new carb/intake rule is to COUNTER ACT Illegal head usage ---- so the guys with illegal heads must spend about $600-$700 to get carb & intake + maybe cam to be within the rules again !

While the LEGAL Head guys get to spend the same money above + as much as ANOTHER $1000-$2000 to buy ???Illegal/Legal??? Heads to be MAYBE Competitive with the Cheaters in the class !

GOT IT NOW ! !

By the way SOME of the guys with These Heads that you are trying to KEEP in the class WILL NOT change to the new rules, because it will kill their big motors SO---- Lose some of the problem cars AND some of the now legal cars because of having to spend More money ~ Just hope there are enough NEW/Old racers to make up for the lost cars + ADD to the field ~ Bigger car count is (I HOPE) the Goal for this change ! !

2) or maybe more of question 1 ~ now i'm All confused ! LOL

I THOUGHT that the issue with Illegal Heads was being taken care of with the Addition of weight ~ you did that to atleast one of the drivers, and it seemed to work, as Damon was Out to Lunch (so to speak) for a week or two, then once he got the car working with the added weight, he was a Little slower than before ! !


On another note ~ PART of MY Problem/attitude over this post is that when you say " We are going back to being Street Stocks " WITHOUT Any other information ~ MOST people reading the post (myself included) ASSUME that you are going Back to the rules from Before the Sportsman Class ~

With ALL the information or LACK there of ~ from the original post it looks/reads like MOST of us that spent tons of money and man hours building a new car will have a car that DOESN'T fit Anyones rules ~ thus forcing us to build another car or Not race Spartan ! !


Now as stated before ~ NOT a Pissing Match ~ just MY opinions :

So as they say " NEVER ASSUME " and Opinions are like A-Holes ~ Everyone has them -- Most of them Stink ! !

That's All i have to say for now, as if i go on anymore, you'll all start calling me Pat ~ Don't call me that ~ McNamara ! ! ! ! ! OUCH ~ Did i go there ?

Chuck " Shagggy " Ammerman

[goinincircles22]

This is exactly why , when rules are made, they should be good for a minimum of 5 years. No less. And no changes during that 5 years. This way, when you build a car , you know that it will be legal for no less than 5 years, possibly longer. I dont care which way the rule changes go, add this or change that, it all adds up to $$$$$.
JMHO !

John

[torg38]

Big motors, aftermaket heads,etc Can all be over come with TIRES. Many supers are sitting in the shop not because of engines but because of tires. Who would want to race a car that cost $420 every two weeks???? Tires are now on the market that can run many races with out drop off. Look at the ponies, the sumo's are lasting full seasons. If the corvette and viper can get 14000 Miles on a set of tires I'm sure we can find some tires that will last much longer and be cheaper. Thus increasing your car count for the supers. Mg
_________________
Effort equals results...Penske
Their is only air in my tires, Like your head...Evernham

[Bardenracing42]

Thank you to to Mark and Arnold for providing some backup to something I have been saying for years. Tires are the key to not only cost cutting but leveling the playing field as well. If you put the sportsman class on street tires, they would save enough to go out and buy their new carbs and intakes with enough money to take their loved ones out for ice cream. I have been campaining this for at least three years and it seems to fall on deaf ears. Maybe if enough people support it, something can finally get done.

[61SSracer]

NO offence to the last two posts, but how does running a street tire on a RACE car help the problem ? 1/2 the guys out there CAN'T handle the track on racing tires, and now you want to put them on Street tires !

I have to work on my body enough thanks ~ put us on street tires, and just plan on using body tear-offs, cause you will need a new one every race ! You CAN'T run high horsepower on street tires ~ kinda like putting skateboard wheels on a go-cart !

And you Can't tell me that i can buy a Corvette or Viper tire Cheaper than $105 ~ not to mention that your saying they get 14,000 miles on a set ? Is that 14,000 miles of High Speed friction around corners ?

How about we stick with racing tires on race cars, and IMPOUND them ~ OOHH !! Crap ~ did i just say that ? NOONE in our class SOAKS ~ why would we need impound ? Now if you want to cut cost, and HELP LEVEL the playing field ~ try impound ~ i would feel Much better spending my money doing that then some of the other ideas on here !

SORRY D _ _ _ ! Some times i Can't help but to cause problem on here ! ! Hope you still respect me in the morning---OOPPS i mean take me to the baseball game you promised me --OOPPS ! I'll just SHUT UP Now ! !

Chuck

[Bardenracing42]

Chuck,
The problem is helped in the cost, and durability of the street tire vs. the race tire. You pretty much answered your own question in your statemtent about those who can't handle a car with a race tire. Those folks aren't gonna handle if you lay carpet on the track and give them velcro tires. So it won't really matter.

Your statement about not being able to run high horsepower on street tires is just the point. It levels the playing field, thus less need to dump money into the big motors. Can't you just see the costs coming down? Heck, what you save in tires, you'll have more than enough to buy a little more sheet metal.

And forget corvette/viper tires, that isn't what we are really talking about. They were mentioned just to make a point about the durabitlity of today's street tires. Your race tire cost over a hundred bucks and lasted what 2 maybe three races? My tires cost 55 bucks and I am still on the same set I started the season with.