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Proposed Rule Change
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:19 pm    Post subject: Proposed Rule Change Reply with quote

I spent quite a bit of time over the past couple of weeks talking to various drivers and car builders and I have a couple of rules change I'd like to propose and request discussion on.

1.) Tech THROUGHLY the Top 5 Cars. Ever since the 2nd race car was built, people have been trying to get a competitive advantage by skirting the rules. I propose we throughly go through the Top 5 finishers each week and make sure they STRICKLY conform to the rules.

2.) Engine/Car claim. I support this. I think it will serve as a deterent to overspending. I recoginize the system isn't perfect since we aren't running identical engines, but the option of the claim will serve as a deterent.

3.) Increase the base weight from 2500 to 2600 for Pony's.. and add 150lbs to the center (meaning a maximum of 45/55 front-back/left-right) of the Neons. Most of the Pony's are weighing in at something between 2600 and 2700 pounds (or more) with driver. The Neon was originally allowed in on an exception basis saying it would car 150 more pounds and a restricted exhaust. But since none of the cars can get to 2500, adding 150 to an unattainable baseline doesn't serve the purpose of balancing the playing field.

4.) Determine a weight penalty for manual transmissions and 4 valve motors and DOHC motors. We should want to increase car counts, make it possible for travelers to give us a shot -- adding weight to the center of the car is simple and not terribly expensive and easily reversable. The HP ratings of all makes and models are known... using the Neon ratio of 5lbs/Horsepower allow all makes and models in, weigh them down and let them run.

Those are my thoughts.. agree, disagree, lets discuss.
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Proposed Rule Change Reply with quote

Hi Patrick,

I don't understand where some of your thoughts are coming from.
Quote:

1.) Tech THROUGHLY the Top 5 Cars.

This is fine, provided there is time.
Quote:

2.) Engine/Car claim. I support this. I think it will serve as a deterent to overspending. I recoginize the system isn't perfect since we aren't running identical engines, but the option of the claim will serve as a deterent.

Claiming doesn't work too good.
Quote:

3.) Increase the base weight from 2500 to 2600 for Pony's

The base weight on the Ponies is 2350 with driver, it's in the rulebook. The Neons are 2450.
Quote:

Most of the Pony's are weighing in at something between 2600 and 2700 pounds (or more)

Only the ones with the heaviest drivers are hitting those numbers. Jimmy Scavarda and Jacob Newman. All other Ponies are between 2350 and 2500. Some of them are cutting it close to the minimum.
Quote:

4.) Determine a weight penalty for manual transmissions and 4 valve motors and DOHC motors. We should want to increase car counts

I don't mind that one. 50 lbs extra for a manual transmission should be OK.
Quote:

make it possible for travelers to give us a shot -- adding weight to the center of the car is simple and not terribly expensive and easily reversable.

What travellers? And how is adding weight to the center of the car going to bring in travellers?
Quote:

The HP ratings of all makes and models are known... using the Neon ratio of 5lbs/Horsepower allow all makes and models in, weigh them down and let them run.

Holy Kamoly! (is that the correct spelling?)
With that figure, a 2500 pound Neon would be producing 500 H.P.!! No wonder Mark Garland's car is so fast!
Quote:

Those are my thoughts.. agree, disagree, lets discuss.

Add another message with some revised thoughts, as the ones you already posted are a bit off the mark.

-Maurice
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Proposed Rule Change Reply with quote

1.) We have to try and make time. I know, I know; easier said then done, but something we should try to accomplish.
2.) I realize the claim isn't perfect in our multi-make, multi-model class, but a plan which isn't perfect is better then no plan at all.
3.) I apologize for quoting the wrong weight, but my point is that most of the Pony's (non-Neon) are weighing closer to 2500, more then a Neon (which had a curb weight of only 2300), rather then 150 lbs less.
4.) Other tracks Pony/Mini/Hornet classes are multi-valve, or DOHC or Manuals or RWD Cars. Under the current rules they can't come if they want to. Those are the "travelers" i'm referring to. On the weights, you misunderstood what I meant to say (or I didn't clearly articulate it), the base horsepower for the Pony's is 100hp. Neons make 132. That's a 32hp variance, they carry an extra 150lbs and have a 1 1/2" exhaust on the last 6 inches. So that's 30 hp extra = 150 extra pounds or 5 lbs/hp over baseline. What I'm saying is if someone shows up with a 180hp Olds, then 80x5lbs = 400 extra pounds center added & a 1 1/2" exhaust tip added. It should make it fair.

Patrick
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Ed



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Jonesville Mi

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well I like the idea of the 50 lbs for the stick shift. That would allow Zach to come up and play when he is allowed. As for the claim on these cars I would claim the whole cars. The Flynn stocks at Crystal have done and Bearfeild has done. You keep you saftey equipment... ie seat belts and Fuel cell if equiped. Then you you the claimer gives up your car and $$ the claimee gets the cash and the claimers car. minus saftey equip. Just my thoughts have seen it first hand down to Bearfield seems to keep the field fair. Good drivers still lead. Bad drivers still crash...
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Champ2x36



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 48
Location: Auburn, IN

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of the extra 50 pounds for a manual transmission, that would make Kathy's ( wife) Beretta legal. I would have to finish out a full roll cage and add a fuel cell, but that's no big hurdle, got a garage full o' tools and a mig welder to play with (and all winter to do it).

Ed is right, in a class like this with so many brands and models of car, an engine claim will not be very effective at all. Nobody will want to claim an engine that they can't use. A claim on the whole car makes a lot more sense, but it would need to be enough to cover the things that need to be added to any car, the roll cage, fuel cell, seat. A very small claim that wouldn't be enough to pay for those items would make it very attractive to claim a car, rather than build one. With the "exchange car" claim, at least the driver claimed goes home with a car to race, even tho' it may not be as good a car as he/she had before. That stops somebody from trying to buy a championship by claiming the car of a competitor that's beating him in points.

I also like the idea that was suggested some time back, of running with no points championship, and taking some ofl the pressure off. Then, RACE FOR FUN!!
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torg38



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adding manual transmissions doesnít make sense. In the United States there is only a 5% take rate for Manual transmissions. Meaning that 95% of the cars in the US are automatics!! So if we change the rule to let the 5% in, now we are allowing them to have the advantage of not having any slip in the driveline. Also the manual transmission weights less than automatics giving you the opportunity to put the weight where you want it.

50lbs is close to the weight of one wheel and tire. Do you really think that carrying a full size spare is going to off set the difference of Zero slip in the driveline???

Food for thought, if manuals are allowed I will be ditching my auto for stick, it will be kind of pricey to find all the parts but worth the effort for the advantage of running a stick. Every time the rules are changed it cost the racers money.

If neonís had not been allowed then I wouldnít had to build another car.

If spec tires are used then all twenty teams will have to buy tires. Instead of running on tires that we already own somebodyís going to make a lot of money on selling tires. (20x4=80tires)

If we add more weight to the shadows (sense they won 13races) then those people will have to purchase lead at $2 a pound.

Donít mess with the rules keeping the rules the same is the recipe for bringing back all the cars that have been there last year, Changing the rules is a good why for the track to send the racers to the poor house.
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Ed



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Jonesville Mi

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most other tracks...crystal,baerfield, illiana...etc allow fwd manuals. "travelers" Zero slip thing can be over come witha simply toggle switch. You wire your lock up torque converter to a toggle bam no slip.. but you already knew that. Lead is selling at Omni source(scrap yard) in Jackson and Jonesville for under $1.00 a pound. How much would you like to buy? Spec tires? Go to the Barum brand that discount tire sells..$35 bucks. we ran them alll season last year with a rookie driver. Held the track nice an wore great. Seen some of your driver out ther running them. If 50lbs insn't enough how much to add? 200? a whole nother person?
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torg38



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a toggle switch huh??? Maybe you should look up how to do that with a 31th dodge trans. In first gear the pump doesnít even supply fluid to the Tcc circuit. So go over that again??

Omni source lead for less that a $1 a pound. What kind of shapes does that come in???? I donít suppose you can pick me up some 12x12x2 ingots????

Barum tires might be $35 each but the sumitomos are $38 ea and every one already owns a set. So how are we saving the racers money making them all buy new tires??? The sumoís on my car ran all year I didnít have to replace any.

Letís open the forum to the ďtravelersĒ and get a head count. Besides if any show up I would be willing to allow them to run one or two races before conforming to our rules.

Maurice has been very easy on the new cars that show up allowing them to run one or more nights before enforcing the rules.
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Ed



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Jonesville Mi

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well your little guy at the bottom says it all "efforts equel results"
When I called about bring our car up we where told in no certain terms no sticks shift! no one week try out nothing. As far as lead it varies from what ever is brought in. some times just wheel weights some time lead bars just depends. efforts equel results. I look I find I make fit my purpose. The switch thing you did know about. a little drilling in the valve body, toggle switch .............. speed cost money how fast can you afford to go? Lots of these guys have big money in these budget racers. I have dimes on the dollars to most of these cars and we run good. never had the chance at spartan but we will someday. If you also imply a rule, you are allowed "x" number of years in this class it's a beginners class move up after so long. if you can't afford to move up find some where else to race. move around. better racers are made by traveling and learning different tracks set ups ect. JMO I am trying as you may have read to start this class at a new track these are rules we are trying. ALL fwd allowed. we will provide weight restrictions as needed.
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to see some conversation on the subject.

Mark... right now, there are 4 Neons; the 99, 1, 31 and 38. All but the 99 won a feature at Spartan, while the 99 was track champion at Springport. You can not honestly say with a straight face that there isn't an inherent advantage in the Neon.

And yes, before you even say it, I realize a shadow won 13 races -- its a separate issue which needs addressing separately, you already acknowledge that if my proposed rules were followed to the T, it would likely address your issues with the 72.

Everyone is aware you fought hard against Neons in the first place, so you know what I'm saying. Please, don't damage your good reputation by being a hypocrite.

Everyone agrees the Neons should weigh about 150lbs more then the 100hp pony's. Take Brian Beckner's Shadow, the most legit strictly stock pony out there (that I'm aware of), weight it and make that the standard.

If 50lbs isn't enough of a weight difference between a manual and an automatic, please use your experience and engineering background to calculate how much would be needed.

$100 or $200 for lead too level the playing field is a small price to pay. At the end of the day, we all want a fair chance and a level playing field and then the teams ability to dial in their rides and the drivers ability to get it around the track are going to be the difference.

In regards to tires, I think there are valid arguments on both sides. Personally, I would prefer to have the security of the Sumos. Its a good sticky tire, its very predictable, they are easy to get and very inexpensive.
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torg38



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed, itís ď Effort equals resultsĒ Meaning that if you check the top five in the class you would find out that every week they are checking and prepping their cars. At least 10hrs a week is spent prepping our cars. They donít just sit on the trailer.

As for a modified valve body, My TORG! Cars have NEVER run a modified valve body at Spartan. (Donít believe me?? Check with the tech inspector)

For those of you who donít know that neonís where originally not allowed in the class. The rules stated ďno duel overhead camsĒ. A Neon was built and builder claimed to have spoken to Mr. Leisure who said yes the car would be legal. Now with so many neonís in the class we would have to outlaw 5 cars instead of one.

Neonís with the 100lbs of weight and 1.5Ē exhaust are a close match for shadow. As shown in the finishing order of points. The neon doesnít need to be gutted to the extent the shadowís do. So they make it a little easier to build a car plus a lot of them are coming to the used car market.

Rick, donít down grade what Brent did this year, Maybe his neon wasnít as fast as others however he did win several races at Springport and IS the Champion of the pony class there. His hard work paid off well for him. Also instead of me spending $100 or $200 in lead to make my car slower you should spend equal amounts to make yours faster.

So in closing quit whining and go do some prep work on your cars. I have seen many Chevyís and dodges (other than neonís) be very fast. Donít sit and complain your not fast go out and do something about it. Do you really think that the Heeneyís or Placeís just leave their car on the trailer all week? Results show on Fridays for all the work during the week.
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Ed



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Jonesville Mi

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. I never targeted you. I only mentioned stuff that can or has been done to cars.
2. WHere are we going to but $200 in our cars? the engines? the racing shocks? the racing springs? Rick was only mentioning things to help group the class better.
3. We have never been allowed to run at sparten except for the open invites which so far have fallen on nights we cannot attend. I know our car is fast. As fast as the neons...close. It's a stick shift shadow. Bone stock 2.5l with the piston in straight and a balance shaft. When we raced against Ricks daytona we beat him 2 out of 3 times.
4. Efforts equals results.. yes we are always looking for more speed but we try to do it to the letter of the rule. Our cars don't just set on the trailer. I am only saying to get more try more. If ten hrs was all I spent prepping our car OMG would I ever have a ton of spare time on my hands.
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

torg38 wrote:
For those of you who donít know that neonís where originally not allowed in the class. The rules stated ďno duel overhead camsĒ. A Neon was built and builder claimed to have spoken to Mr. Leisure who said yes the car would be legal. Now with so many neonís in the class we would have to outlaw 5 cars instead of one. .

Now, since we all know Torg to be a smart, dollar efficient outfit; anybody wonder why they are going all Neon ? Hmmm... lets see, they fought against Neon's tooth and nail to keep them from coming in and now that Neons are here to stay they are leading the Neon effort. Could it be they realize that Neons have a competitive advantage ?!?! Mark, its offending when you act obtuse.

torg38 wrote:
Neonís with the 100lbs of weight and 1.5Ē exhaust are a close match for shadow. As shown in the finishing order of points. The neon doesnít need to be gutted to the extent the shadowís do. So they make it a little easier to build a car plus a lot of them are coming to the used car market. .

Average Points per featued started had Neons in 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th place. Yea, close match.. come on, be real.

78.3 Mark Garland
73.4 John Ward
73.1 Jimmy Scavarda
72.5 Wayne Beckner
72.3 George Wyers
72.0 Brent McCort
71.8 Keith Holden
71.6 Tina Anderson
70.6 Joe Bates

torg38 wrote:
Rick, donít down grade what Brent did this year, Maybe his neon wasnít as fast as others however he did win several races at Springport and IS the Champion of the pony class there. .

Whoa.. who's downgrading him, I'm pretty that "track champion" is what I called him.. let me double check..

lansingsportsrage.com wrote:
while the 99 was track champion at Springport

Yup.. that's what I said.. so how is that downgrading him ?!?!

torg38 wrote:
Also instead of me spending $100 or $200 in lead to make my car slower you should spend equal amounts to make yours faster. .

It is not about making you slower, its returning the Neons to the baseline. You yourself said that if you drove a stock Neon and you drove a stock Shadow that you'd win in the Neon 9 times out of 10. You know it. You live it. You said it. STOP acting like that isn't the reality.
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Russ Potter



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Mason, Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick,
I have set back and tried not to get involved in your NEON TRASHING but can not do so any longer. Which car do you want to win, we can adjust the rules so ANY car can win. The plain fact is that you can build a competitive and fast car for a lot less money if you choose a Neon. It is imperitive in this class that it be CHEAP. I could set here and cry that a Dodge (my preferrence) is not competitive in the Street Stock class unless I spend a LOT of money to make it that way, however, I will be running a Chevy because that is the least expensive, competitive car to build. If you spent half as much time trying to help the class as you have spent NEON BASHING, this class would not have as many problems.
Remember, it is YOUR CHOICE not to run a Neon and spend too much money on the car you did decide to run, so do not BASH anyone that does decide to run one.
Besides, this is a MUTE POINT as the Neons are legal and if you do not like it, decide what will be best for you and do not clutter this site with all of this negativity.
Sorry for having to be so blunt but some people just force you.

Russ
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ,

I am not trashing the Neons... I don't know where that perception comes from.

I proposed that the base weight of the class should go up. Currently it is 2350 lbs, which no Pony's can get to except the Neons (I point them out since they are the only modern 4 cylinder allowed). The base weight should be 2500lbs, which all the Pony's should be able to get to and then the Neons could weight 2650 lbs.

AND not only the Neons, but any multiple intake/exhaust valve cars. Let them run and add 5lbs per HP over the 100hp baseline.

Here are the facts.. The Neon is lighter, has more power, has a lower center of gravity and is a 4 valve per cylinder car. Those are the facts and they are indisputable.

Everyone realizes that, its why the exhaust is restricted and the weight was added. I am not asking for further exhaust restrictions. I am not asking for extra weight be added, I'm asking that the 150Lbs disparity be enforced by realistically setting the base weight of the class.
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