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class revamp
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: cars Reply with quote

oldgold wrote:
but this division is stock not altered stock.
Oh Really ?!?!?!
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 172

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: yogi Reply with quote

daytonapony wrote:
oldgold wrote:
give me a price on what it cost you dodges to go so fast?
dont even go the route that we have to do more homework
you can only do so very little with the brand GM that we chose to race.
If we had 32 more horsepower we could go lots faster, but we dont and cant without spending large sums of money. we talked about a cnc-ed head, ross pistons, eagle rods just to make more horsepower but couldnt justify the $4500 to be able to make the same horsepower as a neon.
since my brother works at a dodge dealership he could get any neon performance part up to and including a 8400 rpm rev chip for a neon.that stuff is not available for gm unless its Quad 4.
I am a gm guy and would like to stay that way . i raced fords in the 60s thru 80s and won many features but the cost to stay fast was way to expensive. i have my own sportsman car and only help dan on his.and try to make it faster. we have done all the spring,alignment, bumpsteer, rearaxle alignment that can be done and now need more horsepower.would anyone object if we put a neon drivetrain in our cavalier? Laughing


Price? In my fathers 3 time feature winning car (which has gone as fast as 19.5 btw) we have less then $2000. That includes the purchase price of the car, a new motor (132k mile shortblock with the same untouched head) a new trans, new control arms, ball joints, tie rod ends, front struts, front sway bar hardware, pipe for the seat mount, rub rail bars, steering column mounts, steering shaft, steering quick release, steering wheel, seat, belts, gauges, switches.

We actually could have saved a lot of money by building a car we bought gutted. The car we have needed built from the ground up basically. You can feel free to look over ANY part of that car, and I mean ANY part. If you can find something that is not stock or a stock replacement I will give you $100. Seat, belts, and steering column not withstanding. If you find nothing you give me $100. Sound simple enough?

My personal car I have less then $1300 into. That includes the headgasket kit, timing belt, water pump, and purchase price. I am running 19.9's at Springport and with my very sticky "cheater" tires ($136 dollars off EBAY btw not 4/6/800 dollars) went 16.4 at the last Spartan invite. It will be much faster soon as I will be setting up the suspension.

It is NOT money like you are hinting at that is making our cars fast. Not by a long shot. In fact I would bet the budget for the 55 Cavi is as big or bigger then the budget for the #79 Neon.

Your gm brand can go faster then our Neon already has. Last year Darren Bohne went 19.4 seconds during a race. He actually consistently went 19.4 during the races. We have hit 19.5 a couple of laps. There was a *GASP* Caviler last year that won the first SIX features. He beat many Neons.

The Neon STOCK has 32 more hp. When you figure your putting a 1.5 inch exhaust over the 2.25 stock pipe it isn't 132 anymore. The pipe we put on is worth 2 tenths or MORE a lap. This has been proven. If your going to spend $4500 on a 4 cylinder GM motor then I'm sorry you have no idea how to make HP out of one. I know plenty of guys with Cavilers on the street who have fully built forged motors making 200+ whp who don't have $4500 on the entire drivetrain. They have $1100 axles also.

I would also like to point out that there is actually very little for a first generation Neon left for Mopar performance parts. You can no longer get the springs, the "hot" camshaft is a stock 95 cam, and the other "hot" parts are basically the pcm. Which btw either your brother either does not know what he's talking about or is lying to you. The Neon pcm NEVER and I repeat NEVER has had a "chip" in it. There has been ONE person who has successfully gotten a Neon pcm "chiped" and he lives in Argentina. There has NEVER and I repeat NEVER been a Neon PCM that has been available with a 8400 rpm "chip". There was/is a company making pcms for Neons with an 8100 limit. HOWEVER that limit has not been available for almost 10 years. Now the limit is 7800. That PCM btw is NOT available by any Dodge dealer. The options for a GM pcm are much MUCH better with the EPROM availability/ the "chip".

It is flat out simple why our Neons are fast and why the other Neons who run up front are fast. We have personally put over 200 MAN hours into my fathers car. It has been basically rebuilt from the ground up with ALL stock parts. Every aspect of that car has been touched. Edson Rowleys car is wicked fast because he puts an insane amount of work in it. How many drivers do you see working on their cars between the heat and feature when there is no damage? I know of 2 one is me the other is Edson.

Anyone who wishes to run a GM/Caviler simply needs to figure out the proper gear ratio for the track they want and run it. If they would like to run at more then one track then they will have to compromise. That is GM's design flaw. Not Dodge for doing it better. The GM's actually have the superior transmission ratios but they do not fare "that" well at multiple tracks.

I do have to say that you obviously don't fare too poorly at Spartan with Dan's car. In fact he's gotten 1 or 2 wins if I remember correctly and I know he ran door to door with Edson a few weeks ago. That race he finished third. In that race 1st was a Neon, 2nd a Shadow, 3rd a Caviler and then 4th through 11th was a Neon. That race also it seemed to me that the Caviler was not beat on the straightaways but some uber high horsepower Neon but in the corners by a car and driver that could turn better.

Seems like a Caviler can beat Neons to me.
if the neons werent a advantage over all others why the reduction in exhaust pipe? or is it the 4 valve per cylinder? or is it the horsepower figure?
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SHOracer14



Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Toledo, OH

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the rules are pretty good as they are now, my only gripe is why is the Neon the only 16 valve motor allowed? There are many other vehicles out there with SOHC 16 valve layouts with very similar power. I think they also should be let in with the same exhaust restrictions and weight additions as the Neon. I mean, why not? As far as foreign makes, I don't have a problem with that as long as the vehicles are assembled in the U.S. I think a perfect example of a car that could be let in with the same restrictions the Neon has, and is also a foreign make, could be the 1991-1997 Honda Accord (1990 was the same car but built in Japan... some 91's were also built in Japan). 2.2 liter SOHC 16 valve 125 H.P in DX and LX trim, 130 on the EX and 140 on the rare SE trim level. A little bit of a larger car than most in the class (except for Steve's Acclaim). I'm just looking to make it interesting... I myself currently run a Neon and purchased one to build myself for next year. I am in no way a "Mopar Guy" but right now the Neon wins the "speed for my amount of money" award.

Considering the latter Caviler 2.2's make 120 horse and don't have exhaust restrictions or added weight could also be made competative on the cheap. The Ford contingency is kind of screwed unless the Probe is let in. The old 2.3 Tempo nets a whopping 96 H.P., the Old 1.9 Escort SOHC makes 88 H.P. and the newer 2.0 SOHC found in Escorts and Focii net 110 H.P. Another possible contender for the slow award would be the SOHC Saturn SC1/SL1 with 100 H.P.
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SHOracer14 wrote:
As far as foreign makes, I don't have a problem with that as long as the vehicles are assembled in the U.S.


Foreign cars have always been allowed in the Pony Stock class. They don't have to be US assembled. They simply have to follow the rules as outlined in the rule book.

-Maurice
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SHOracer14 wrote:
Another possible contender for the slow award would be the SOHC Saturn SC1/SL1 with 100 H.P.


This SOHC Saturn :



Turned in the fast lap of the year (19.344) last year at Springport on May 19th, 2007; and won the Feature.
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SHOracer14



Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Toledo, OH

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lansingsportsrage.com wrote:
SHOracer14 wrote:
Another possible contender for the slow award would be the SOHC Saturn SC1/SL1 with 100 H.P.


This SOHC Saturn :



Turned in the fast lap of the year (19.344) last year at Springport on May 19th, 2007; and won the Feature.

I suppose that one doesn't look too slow now does it. I stand corrected. I'm just comparing H.P. numbers as opposed to suspension setups as if you start with a car with more power than another you usually have an automatic advantage. Another good thing about the Neon is the vast amount of factory suspension upgrades available. This is also going to hold true on many imports as well.
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torg38



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should be noted that the driver of the very fast saturn is no other then Randy Kilngon. He is also the builder of the pontiac lemans that won the championship at spartan in 01,02, In 03 a caviler won the championship with Kyle ballard at the wheel. In 04 Jerry garland with a caviler. Sound like it was the GM show back then.

It's not about this car or that car, In 06 a shadow won 13 races at spartan.
It's about details, details details, Working on your car every day,every week. Laying in bed thinking about camber gain,tire pressure,toe
settings. To be fast doesn't fall on you. You must go out and find it.
Keep working you'll find it. Don't give up. Turn off the computer and go out to the shop. Mg
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Their is only air in my tires, Like your head...Evernham
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One reason the Neons run so well is because they can use the 3.05 ring and pinion at Spartan. This also helps them at Springport. The Shadows hit the rev limiter if they use the 3.05 gear, so they have to use the 2.86 gear.

The 3.05 gear gets them off the corner quicker. Plus it helps get the Neon into the RPM range where it likes to run.

Getting the car geared right is very helpful.

-Maurice
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RealRacing



Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

which SOHC Neon came with a 3.05 gear

which car came from the factory with a Mopar performance computer

the rules read - The use of O.E.M. or after market performance parts is not allowed

are either of those non-stock parts allowed
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mopar93 wrote:
One reason the Neons run so well is because they can use the 3.05 ring and pinion at Spartan. This also helps them at Springport. The Shadows hit the rev limiter if they use the 3.05 gear, so they have to use the 2.86 gear.

The 3.05 gear gets them off the corner quicker. Plus it helps get the Neon into the RPM range where it likes to run.

Getting the car geared right is very helpful.

-Maurice


The most Dominate pony right now hands down has the 2.86 gear. Edson Rowley has one of the absolute most stock cars there are out there. He thought out his exhaust restriction. Sets up the suspension the way he wants EVERY week. He also can drive like nobody's buisness. Anyone that doubts the last one I implore you to ride 3 laps around Waterford Hills in the Edscort Laughing

And a fast (16.8 or so seconds a lap) Neon will hit the limiter, even a raised limiter, with the .91's and a 3.05 trans. A Neon with 205/50-15's, .91 transfer fears, the 2.86 trans, and raised limiter will hit the limiter about 2/3rds of the way down the straight too Laughing I was doing that at the invite with my "cheater" tires on.

Here is the deal, there ARE options out there for your Cavi. Heck as stated above a 100hp Saturn (OMG A GM CAR?) destroyed the competition at Springport last year. It had nothing at all to do with the motor. He could flat out turn that car. By running 5mph faster through the corners he could run 5mph faster down the straight.

When your car is the fastest one to ever run you can claim nothing else can be done.
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2010 and 2011 Pony stock Track Champion
15.23 Fastest FWD lap ever at Spartan on fun night.
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RealRacing wrote:
which SOHC Neon came with a 3.05 gear

which car came from the factory with a Mopar performance computer

the rules read - The use of O.E.M. or after market performance parts is not allowed

are either of those non-stock parts allowed


Oh look "this guy" is back Rolling Eyes

More then one SOHC Neon came from the factory with a 3.05 trans. This has been stated.

A car with a stock computer is still faster then quite a few cars I'm sure your "with"

That also means btw taking "your" reading of the rules that the ONLY wheels you are allowed to use are straight off a Neon. You have to run the big open holed rims and thats it. You need to take the cavi wheels off, you need to take the shadow rims off, and definitly take off any acclaim wheels being run.

Maybe you should stick to trying to find out what rods to use to make the 2.4 pistons to fit.
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: yogi Reply with quote

oldgold wrote:
if the neons werent a advantage over all others why the reduction in exhaust pipe? or is it the 4 valve per cylinder? or is it the horsepower figure?


This has been stated MANY times. The reduction in exhaust size is because the engines make roughly 30 more HP. The exhaust restriction is good for 2 tenths or more at Springport.
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: performance Reply with quote

oldgold wrote:
torg38 wrote:
This is a perfect example why we have 3 race ready ponies sitting in shop. once you start to win, Everyone starts whining. Instead of looking to change the rules maybe people should ask for help.

There's many people that would be very willing to answer any question you have.

So instead of throwing knives at ford/dodge/chevy ask around an talk to people that have allready made there car fast. Mg
already talked to conroy. now i will ask you how can we pickup about 25 horsepower?
tryed more compression, have max lift and duration cam available for that year,largest,exaust manifold and intake, changed injectors to better flowing ones NOW what.


NOW what? Here's a huge idea. Go faster through the corners. If that doesn't pick your speed up enough try this, get the right gear ratios!!!

Dan's car is fast at Spartan because the gear ratio in his manual is obviously very close to whats needed. At Springport his transmission is putting the car in the wrong RPM range. That is the downfall of the GM cars. Without the easily accessible transfer gears they are limited to one ratio. Don't get your panties that riled up over power when it's a GM design "flaw" that won't allow you to put it in the power band.
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15.872 Fastest pony stock lap during the season.
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: cars Reply with quote

oldgold wrote:
thank you dennis put very well. now on another note some of the dodge boys seem to forget the scavarda episode i remember LOTS of crying at that time because of that 200?+ hp motor that was bought from BFE and was $3500 or some ungodly figure and we couldnt win. now its the gm guys who if theydont want to be in a neon need to do there home work Bull-spit. it should be any driver can win in any car.we feel we are out motored by design 6100 is max for 2.2 gm. PCM can be altered IF 1996 or newer and only have rev limit moved to 6500 and timing altered. we run 92 ,we are stuck. we could run a 2.3 single over headcam engine at 150 hp but this division is stock not altered stock. Shocked


I have never once complained about Scavarda and his car. I know however how he gets alot of his extra power. Not all of it is the motor either.

Now as far as "it should be any driver can win in any car". Are you actually serious about that? I mean that's a bad joke right? If we wanted to all race 100% equal cars and punish any driver with a better skill level we'd all run some traveling series with alot more strict rules. There are always going to be better cars and better drivers. A great driver can usally do well in a good car. A poor driver usually can't do well in a great car. A good driver in a good car will always lose to a great driver in a good car or a good driver in a great car.

A car with 100hp stomped the crap out of the 132hp Neons last year. Maybe talk to him about how to go fast.
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todd metz sr.



Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 252
Location: Charlotte

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

torg38 wrote:
It should be noted that the driver of the very fast saturn is no other then Randy Kilngon. He is also the builder of the pontiac lemans that won the championship at spartan in 01,02, In 03 a caviler won the championship with Kyle ballard at the wheel. In 04 Jerry garland with a caviler. Sound like it was the GM show back then.

It's not about this car or that car, In 06 a shadow won 13 races at spartan.
It's about details, details details, Working on your car every day,every week. Laying in bed thinking about camber gain,tire pressure,toe
settings. To be fast doesn't fall on you. You must go out and find it.
Keep working you'll find it. Don't give up. Turn off the computer and go out to the shop. Mg


You sir have hit the nail square on the head!!!!!!

It is fun to watch the other cars in the pits at the track. The drivers that actually adjust their cars, ( toe, air in tires, etc... ) are the ones that usually run near the front. Those that leave their cars alone untill race day seem to not get any faster. Brand or model do not matter when it comes to making a car better/faster as the season progresses.

If Neons were not so easy to find and cheap to build/fix I would be in a Cavalier and I believe that it too would be near the front simply because of the amount of time that would be spent on it.

As you said mark details, details, details, that is why the same cars are where they are most every week.


James,

If you think allowing Honda's in the pony class will keep it from becoming a Neon class, you are correct. Neons will be some of the slower cars in the field. Honda's are THE easiest cars to make super fast with stock factory parts. A 150 hp or more is very easy and common from these motors.
Suspenision parts are to be found everywhere for them.
In a very short time it would be the Honda pony class.

Rick,

If you want a fast GM to race in the pony class legally, I could get you hooked up if you truely want to come join us as a driver and not just as a message board poster. The cavaliers can be in the 19 second club just as easy as the mopars can.
If your cavi is not getting any faster all you have to do is ask in person and my son and others ( including me ) would be more than happy to try and help you find some more speed.
I have talked to Dan now and then and he seems to be having fun when he is at the track most of the time. Not once have I heard him complain about his cavi being too slow. He even told me he was going to try and make it to Springport still this season and wanted to know if I was going to come over to Owosso this year. He seemed very happy.

Just my thoughts
YOGI
Todd Metz Sr.
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