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class revamp
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None of the Mopars are geared right for Springport. There just isn't a gear available that would be correct.

So, why then are the Mopars doing all the winning at Springport? Because the GM guys aren't building any more cars.

A Cavalier with an automatic has a gear available that will work good at Springport. The Mopar gearing is really not quite enough. But if a Cavalier is not geared right, it won't be as fast as the Mopars.

The only way to get a Mopar geared right at Springport ( and Owosso ) is to use the 3.05 ring and pinion, the 1.22 transfer gears, and short 205/55-14 tires like what is allowed at an open invitational. In 2004, we had the K-Car hitting about 5800-5900 at the end of the straights with the 195/70-14 tires. But at the invites with the short tires, we could hit 6400-6500. That was just about right for that particular motor. It ran very well at Owosso like that, also.

I wonder why nobody has tried a manual trans in a Neon at Spartan yet? Note: Don't try it for Springport, the gearing isn't right.

I also still wonder why nobody has built the "killer" GM Pony Stock yet, either. I'll quit describing it, because I guess I'm wasting my breath trying to get someone to build one.

I would also like to see a Plymouth TC-3 out there with a 2.2 carbureted engine. It would be light, so you could put your ballast where you need it. It would be a little screamer. Plus, they are very aerodynamic. That's more important than you might think.

-Maurice
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todd metz sr.



Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 252
Location: Charlotte

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RealRacing wrote:
which SOHC Neon came with a 3.05 gear

which car came from the factory with a Mopar performance computer

the rules read - The use of O.E.M. or after market performance parts is not allowed

are either of those non-stock parts allowed


Poor RealRacing,

It is too bad you feel so down right now...............

Life can be good if you have the right attitude..........

You have given up on my big motor story...........

Gotta cry about a transmission and any other thing that you can think of............

I use some leaded race fuel that I buy at the track. That is not stock and YES it is a aftermarket performance product...........
Maybe the track should tech for that and DQ ANYONE that uses leaded racing fuel in a car made for unleaded!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked

Too bad you are so unhappy with yourself right now...........
Lashing out and crying about a fast car does nothing but make EVERYONE laugh at you and then feel sorry for you............

I will still say some prayers for ya RealRacing, you need them...

YOGI
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mopar93 wrote:
None of the Mopars are geared right for Springport. There just isn't a gear available that would be correct.

So, why then are the Mopars doing all the winning at Springport? Because the GM guys aren't building any more cars.

A Cavalier with an automatic has a gear available that will work good at Springport. The Mopar gearing is really not quite enough. But if a Cavalier is not geared right, it won't be as fast as the Mopars.

The only way to get a Mopar geared right at Springport ( and Owosso ) is to use the 3.05 ring and pinion, the 1.22 transfer gears, and short 205/55-14 tires like what is allowed at an open invitational. In 2004, we had the K-Car hitting about 5800-5900 at the end of the straights with the 195/70-14 tires. But at the invites with the short tires, we could hit 6400-6500. That was just about right for that particular motor. It ran very well at Owosso like that, also.

I wonder why nobody has tried a manual trans in a Neon at Spartan yet? Note: Don't try it for Springport, the gearing isn't right.

I also still wonder why nobody has built the "killer" GM Pony Stock yet, either. I'll quit describing it, because I guess I'm wasting my breath trying to get someone to build one.

I would also like to see a Plymouth TC-3 out there with a 2.2 carbureted engine. It would be light, so you could put your ballast where you need it. It would be a little screamer. Plus, they are very aerodynamic. That's more important than you might think.


-Maurice


If I am able money, time, and space wise to build a Spartan car for next year it will be a manual. A little research and careful planning has resulted in being able to find a near perfect ratio.

I think there IS a manual trans to run at Springport. It however would just be very very expensive and if I'm going to spend that kind of money I would put it in my street car Laughing

At Springport with a 3.05 and 1.22 gears and 195/70R14's I was running almost exactly the same RPM as the K-Car in my Daytona last year. I would hit 5800 give or take a 100 rpm at the end of the straights. This year with Dads Neon we have finally gotten a tachometer to work in it so Saturday I can tell you what a Neon with that gear ratio turns for RPM's.

You are right on though why there are no fast GM's at the track this year. I don't belive anyone at all built a GM this year. There are a few guys running them but they have had bad information or lack of help for the most part. The one or two fairly fast GM's seem to do quite well for themselves at Spartan.
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15.23 Fastest FWD lap ever at Spartan on fun night.
15.872 Fastest pony stock lap during the season.
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RealRacing wrote:
which SOHC Neon came with a 3.05 gear

which car came from the factory with a Mopar performance computer

the rules read - The use of O.E.M. or after market performance parts is not allowed

are either of those non-stock parts allowed


Those rules have always been open to interpretation... I mean no Dodge Shadow came with 1.22 gears either, but everyone runs them. Same with Neons and the rest of the 413/31th tranny cars.

There are other cars with half shafts off other cars, or noses off different cars.. they are all "non-stock" parts also that are allowed.

The rules aren't black & white and hard & fast.. perhaps more time finding the gray areas would behoove your efforts.
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

todd metz sr. wrote:
If you think allowing Honda's in the pony class will keep it from becoming a Neon class, you are correct. Neons will be some of the slower cars in the field. Honda's are THE easiest cars to make super fast with stock factory parts. A 150 hp or more is very easy and common from these motors. Suspenision parts are to be found everywhere for them. In a very short time it would be the Honda pony class.

Couldn't exhaust restrictions be used on the Honda to slow it down like it is on the Neon ?
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lansingsportsrage.com wrote:
todd metz sr. wrote:
If you think allowing Honda's in the pony class will keep it from becoming a Neon class, you are correct. Neons will be some of the slower cars in the field. Honda's are THE easiest cars to make super fast with stock factory parts. A 150 hp or more is very easy and common from these motors. Suspenision parts are to be found everywhere for them. In a very short time it would be the Honda pony class.

Couldn't exhaust restrictions be used on the Honda to slow it down like it is on the Neon ?


They "could" but Honda's come stock (most of them anyways) with like 1.25 inch pipe and 1.5. Unless you step them down to like 1 inch it wouldn't hurt that much Laughing

Neons come stock with 2.25 inch pipe and they step down to a 1.5. Using that theory (3/4 of an inch) the Hondas would have a 3/4 inch pipe Laughing THAT would sound goofy!!!

Honda's really are very capable cars and can do very very well in a class like ours..... stock that is. If you get someone like the Garlands, Jimmy, Myself, or Edson to actually "build" a Honda they would be the new Neons and everyone would have to have one or bitch they can't keep up Laughing
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2010 and 2011 Pony stock Track Champion
15.23 Fastest FWD lap ever at Spartan on fun night.
15.872 Fastest pony stock lap during the season.
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SHOracer14



Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Toledo, OH

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

daytonapony wrote:
lansingsportsrage.com wrote:
todd metz sr. wrote:
If you think allowing Honda's in the pony class will keep it from becoming a Neon class, you are correct. Neons will be some of the slower cars in the field. Honda's are THE easiest cars to make super fast with stock factory parts. A 150 hp or more is very easy and common from these motors. Suspenision parts are to be found everywhere for them. In a very short time it would be the Honda pony class.

Couldn't exhaust restrictions be used on the Honda to slow it down like it is on the Neon ?


They "could" but Honda's come stock (most of them anyways) with like 1.25 inch pipe and 1.5. Unless you step them down to like 1 inch it wouldn't hurt that much Laughing

Neons come stock with 2.25 inch pipe and they step down to a 1.5. Using that theory (3/4 of an inch) the Hondas would have a 3/4 inch pipe Laughing THAT would sound goofy!!!

Honda's really are very capable cars and can do very very well in a class like ours..... stock that is. If you get someone like the Garlands, Jimmy, Myself, or Edson to actually "build" a Honda they would be the new Neons and everyone would have to have one or bitch they can't keep up Laughing

You are correct... most Honda motors under 2.0 liters of displacement usually use 1.5" or less (not counting Si vehicle's and such). The "large" displacement Honda's like that found in the 2.2 Accord however, use 1 7/8" pipe stock, so cutting down the exhuast would definately keep the playing field level power wise. I'm not saying this would be "THE" car to run I'm just using it as an example... apply it to any four banger on the road. I mainly used this as an example because the next place my brother's 91' Accord with 300k plus miles will end up is the boneyard. Considering my parents bought it new in 91' it has some sentimental value, and it would be cool to turn it into something rather than junk it.
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somebody should take it upon themselves to actually build a car that currently is not allowed. Keep it completely legal and with some sort of restriction like a 1.5 inch exhaust and extra weight, and then bring it to the track for testing.

It could be run during hot laps, but not during a race. It could then be evaluated and decisions could be made. It's really hard to decide if a particular car should be allowed based on manufacturer's horsepower rating, number of valves, and other factors. You really have to see the car in action. It should be a car that is readily available and relatively inexpensive to buy and build. This was done with a Neon a few years ago. It was then made legal and is now very popular.

It's also surprising how some cars can perform that nobody would ever consider.

In the winter of 2003-2004, most people thought I was nuts to build a K-Car, something that was nothing more than a grocery getter. In 2004, they thought differently.

-Maurice
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Jim Leasure



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maurice I think you are the perfect fit to do so. You have the knowledge and shop, so?
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Leasure wrote:
Maurice I think you are the perfect fit to do so. You have the knowledge and shop, so?


Yes, I have the capability, shop, and knowledge. However, I do not have the desire to build a Honda, Probe, or 16 valve GM car.

If I built something that was currently not allowed, it would be a Stratus with a 2.4, or a PT Cruiser with the same engine. Or any number of Mitsubishi cars.

You can find cheap Dodge Stratus' but you can't find cheap PT Cruisers.

-Maurice

p.s. Don't tell anyone I'm racing a 1 cylinder Honda engine. Smile
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the following message thread:

http://spartanspeedway.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1981

racer30 wrote:
I have just recently moved back to the area from Northern Michigan because of my job. I was in the process of building my first car to race at Northern Michigan Speedway near Gaylord. It has always been a dream of mine to not only race but build a car as well. Now that im in the area i would like to race it a Spartan Speedway (i grew up around the corner and worked in the consession stand at turn 4). The only problem with that is that its a Ford Probe. I have read in previous threads that some people would not be opposed to allowing a Ford Probe provided that they worked with the track to build an acceptable car. The car is gutted and caged and thats about it at this point. I was wondering what you guys thought about that. I was also wondering the about the mentor program to see if anyone would like to take a newbie under there wing and show them the ropes
Thanks
Tony


There's your candidate for the Probe test.

Who's got a Honda that could be used for testing?

And how about a GM car with 16 valves?

Weight and small exhaust could be a good equalizer.

-Maurice
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racer30



Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im in for the Probe test. The cars almost done anyway no use scrapping the project now.
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Sortabigg



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Originally from Bath MI

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:50 pm    Post subject: probe... Reply with quote

Racer30, if your car is done before the season is over, you could bring it to spartan for an invite i believe, or even the fun night at the end of the season. Give everyone a chance to see what it can do.



there you go racer30, you just got the nod from the man. look below
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She is gone but not forgotten.
And her sister is here!


Last edited by Sortabigg on Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jim Leasure



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me know when the car will be done and we will make some arrangement to get you on the track. 517-244-1042 or info@spartanspeedway.com
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torg38



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we really considering opening the rules of the pony stock class???? Has not history taught us the lesson that when we change the rules we cost the racers money. How many people sold off there cars after the neon was allowed?

I seem to remember someone saying “It will become the neon show” Seems they were right. Now we are looking to do the same thing again?

If the car count was low I could see some changes however in the tough economy we’re in we should be trying alienate the people we all ready have.

It’s been proven over and over (I.E. flat rock) if you keep the rules the same the class will continue to grow.

The dodge neon was allowed. How many parked their cars and built neons?
We now have the manual transmission legal. How many cars did that bring?
The neon’s need two different two sizes. How many did we lose.

If someone goes through the effort to build a car do you really think they just want to sit on the side lines? Do you think the first guy to build neon would have been happy with that?

Seems like we have been down this road and it’s a steep slope.

I guess I should start looking for a 2dr 92 grand am with a quad four 5spd.
Mg
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