[cajracing]

Just a question about this rule. If two people are involved in a spin out, and one acknowledges that it is his fault by tapping out, shouldn't the other driver be allowed his position back? The reason I ask this is because it happened this weekend with me and one other driver. I tapped out because it was clearly my fault, but the other driver was not allowed his spot back, which I think is wrong. The other driver should have been allowed his position back without question when the one who tapped out acknowledges the blame for the spin out.
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Thanks,

Steve

[queenbee]

Steve:

From what I understand no matter what the spinnee and the spinner will automatically go to the tail. It's fantastic that the driver (in your case - you) tapped out for sportsmanship but the rule still stands.

If I am incorrect on this please someone from the track (official) please correct me.

We had a situation at Spartan that created a problem when the driver tapped out and took fault and the other car got his spot back.


Queenbee

[Marq Eaton #12]

but they said in the drivers meeting that if you tap out thay will give the guy that got spon out would get his or her spot back

[Mopar93]

This is just my opinion for when the time comes that the rules are being revisited for 2009...

I think the spinner/spinnee rule, the tap-out rule, and the spotter rule, could all be combined.

#1 priority: If a driver taps out and admits fault, he goes to the rear and all others involved get their spots back.

#2 priority: Nobody taps out, however one or more spotters are able to confirm who is at fault. That driver goes to the rear and all others involved get their spots back.

#3 priority: Nobody taps out and none of the spotters are able to confirm who was at fault. Everyone involved goes to the rear.

There is one other method that has never been used. When a caution comes out, get your cars straightened out and going again. Wherever you are, that's where you'll be. In other words, if the whole field hasn't gone by yet, you'll fall in line wherever you are once you are back under motion. I know this rule will never get approved, but I thought I'd suggest it anyway.

-Maurice

[Lack o Diesel]

here's the problem with the tap out.

Some times a drive doesn't feel it's worth it, or is having a bad night, or doesn't want to create waves. So he taps. So pretty much someone can drive through someone else, and if the person who was taken out taps, it's all okay. Short track racing used to always be spinner spinnee and for some reason we all got away from that. IMCA says if you stop, spin to avoid you go to the tail. AVSS sprints same thing. So maybe that's the way it should be.

Spinner spinnee takes the tracks decision out of it. That way the only person there is to be upset with is the person who just took you out.

Perry

[61SSracer]

The PROBLEM with the Spinner-Spinnee Rule is when you have drivers that DONT know how to get to the front Without PUSHING their way thru traffic, You end up on the tail end for another drivers(lack of)decission to PLOW Thru you to get up front !

YES they get sent to the rear for spinning you, But YOU Also get sent to the back for their LACK of driving ability !

The PROBLEM with the Tap-Out Rule is when you get Spun by someone driving like an Ass, if they Don't Tap out, once Again your at the back of the pack along with them ! !

With BOTH rules you USUALLY end up with an innocent racer being sent to the rear for an ASS that Can't drive ~ on the other hand ACCIDENTS happen, and if the one responsible isn't man/woman enough to own up to the mistake, you still end up in the same spot ~ THE BACK OF THE PACK ! !

BOTH rules can either be seen as Good or Bad depending on the situation, but the Tap-out rules seamed to be working well in the past with the help of the track crew when needed ! The Spinner--Spinnee rules PUNISHES ALL involved Innocent and Asses alike ! !

As Perry stated:

"The only person there is to be upset with is the person who took you out !"

This CAN be a Very Bad situation, when you end up with a couple guys trying to "Take each other OUT" because they're Both Pissed about going to the rear ! That's mainly because Neither of them THINK they did wrong !

I think the Tap-out rule worked better in general ~ with the aid of what the track crew sees as to what happened, and the tapping out of the person responsible, if NEITHER of the involved drivers admit wrong within about 30 seconds, THEN BOTH go to the rear ! We Don't need to stop and talk with all involved to see who did what ~ give them about 30 sec to tap out or BOTH go to the rear !! If a party involved is going to be Honest and Tap out, they Are already going to do so WITHOUT being talked to by the officials ! ! Tap-out and get on with the race !

Just My 2 cents worth on the subject !

Chuck "Shaggy" Ammerman

[matt kirchen]

well said shaggy--couldn't have said it any better CHANGE the rule for next year PLEASE!



Matt
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BE FAST
OR
BE LAST

[Lack o Diesel]

I'm not sure I want it changed. For the 3 times I seen it happen where someone was an innocent bystander. That doesn't make up for the 10's of times this season it would have been right to send both to the back.

Here's the thing. The track was trying to do all of the above. You can't have three rules. It's like saying every car has to have a distributor. Depening on the person depends on what they call a distributor. Mag, MSD, HEI, Points. The rule has to be clear, no sway.

I don't for the life of me understand how after all these rules meetings we've all attended. Everyone one of us declaring how there has to be a hard line on rules on our vehicles are willing to let rules like this sway back and forth.

Take it back to the good ol days. If you stop, to the tail. Spin to avoid, to the tail. The Judgement call made a bunch of premature spinners to get someone sent to the back. A love tap doesn't constitute a smoke show!

I feel strongly on this due to the fact that I saw every option in one night. That doesn't work. There is no consistency.

Perry

[schinde]

Hhmmm,

Let's see.

Spinner/spinnee to the back.

"If you stop, to the tail. Spin to avoid, to the tail. The Judgement call made a bunch of premature spinners to get someone sent to the back. A love tap doesn't constitute a smoke show!"


Seems to work.

have a good day,

schinde
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Short track racing is more fun than a human being ought to be allowed to have!

[Mopar93]

Ok, how about a spinner/spinnee rule where both go to the tail, but the spinner also goes down 1 lap?

-Maurice

[Jim Leasure]

The drivers that would tap out are not the drivers that are involved in the most cautions. In other words most of the drivers that are too aggressive and can't get around either track with out contact have convinced themselves that they are always being hit by someone else.

If (IF) we revisit any part of the Spinner/Spinnee I promise you this time next year there will be the same amout of controversy about (bad) calls. That is a promise.

Now one thing that could curtail this controversy is race receivers or what ever they are called. This would be most helpful at Spartan regarding the pinching people up into the front stretch wall. I am a proponent for this technology for the 09 season.

[MaddMike]

[Big Ed]

I personally agree with Maurice's plan, and about everything Shaggy said.

I am NOT a driver, but I have witnessed thousands and thousands of local short track racing events, not only in Michigan, but all over our country. I have NEVER seen a perfect system, there is no such thing. Someone, somewhere, will find fault with something, and they will be right. The FIRST thing that needs to happen, to maintain a successful system, is for every single person involved to realize, IT IS NOT 100% FOOL PROOF!!! You WILL have some calls, sometimes, that may not be either to the liking of all participants, or maybe not 100% correct.

Have you ever watched a game, any game, on TV, and seen errors in the calls made?? Of course you have. Why would a local race track be any different?? There is a human element working here, and I have yet to meet a PERFECT human being, although I have met many who THOUGHT they may be!!!

To me, Maurice has the right idea, the closest we are going to come to covering all the bases, and getting the FAIREST result for ALL parties.

Allow a driver to Tap Out if they are assuming responsibility.

If an official has seen an incident, and strongly feels they have an obvious solution, let them.

If all else fails, and no one takes responsibility, and no official has a clear cut solution to the incident, it's a spiner/spinee thing then.

Just one man's opinion.

[Lack o Diesel]

Ed,

I agree with the Tap out system, don't get me wrong. I was a proponent for it.

But the problem is that word "Obvious". See we were told using words like Obvious, Blatant, Out Right. The tap out becomes a crutch to lean on. He tapped so we'll give that guy his spot back.

If the Obvious stuff is handled accordingly then it's all good. I tapped one night in front of the other driver just to let him know it was my fault. Even though I knew we were both going to the tail. So if the track sticks to the obvious calls then tap out is fine.

I'll race under whatever rule is decided. But I don't want to have to decipher between 3 of them for the same thing. Leaves a lot of uncertainty.


Perry

[Mopar93]

Hi Perry,