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2009 Pure Stock Rules

 
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Drake Racing 14 28
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: 2009 Pure Stock Rules Reply with quote

Jim you asked for our ideas and opinions about the 09 Pure Stock Rules and Class. So here are our ideas for the 09 pure stock rules.

Eliminate the Vacuum Rule, instead go with Cam Lift. Vacuum is to easily effected by many factors like Timing, Carb, Daily conditions, Gauges. Cam Lift is pretty straight forward, just remove a rocker arm off an intake and an exhaust push rod attach your dial indicator and turn the engine over.

Keep the Radial Tire. this is a HUGE advantage to the pure class, you rarely wear a tire completely out. in 07 and 08 the only time we had to replace a tire was when one was damaged. we got through the whole season on 7 tires. and getting those tires at 78 dollars a piece makes the tires of huge benefit.

Allow 400's and other engines to run with us. Place weight on 400's and take weight off of 327's, 305, etc.... weight penalty's and weight breaks will allow many cars to come and run. maybe 150 pounds on a 400, 350 gets to break even, and a 305 gets 150 pounds off. something along that line of thinking.

Next to Tech that rule it's absolutely critical that the track invest in an engine pump. this pump will not only help police the pure stocks it can be used in every class at the track. not only does the track need to buy a pump but they need to use it religiously. top 3 and 1 random. At the Owosso Nationals they pumped the street stocks to ensure that the 360+ CID engines were adding on the extra 100 pounds that they had to put on.

Also Put all of the rules in the book. example cast iron intake. we are supposed to have an cast iron intake, although it says no where in the rulebook that such an intake has to be put on. no one has a problem being teched on a rule as long as that rule is published in the rule book.

Aluminum Intakes, lets take a look at this rule. GM started putting aluminum intakes on all engines from 1975 up, to help combat the fuel crisis. this makes the aluminum intake plentiful. you can find an aluminum intake at every scrap/junk yard from here to California. If you would like to see the Intake Manifold Data Sheet i can send you the link. if you go into cats parts mart to look for an intake manifold you'll be hard pressed to find a usable cast iron intake but aluminum's are plentiful.

The intent of this class is to get new people into the sport. owosso was luring cars up there with payout. now i'm not saying we need to beat owosso's pay. but an increase would help offset the costs of building a car and getting to the track. as we all know the economy in this state and the whole nation isn't as strong as in years past. this leaves less disposable income to wanna be racer joe. a 25 dollar increase in pay across the board can help pay for fuel to get to the track. Owosso's regular night pay is something along the lines of 150 to win and 60 to start, if i'm wrong please correct me, i don't have a copy of the regular night pay i'm just going by what was paid when i went up there in august. maybe by increasing the pay we can also pull some owosso cars down to run on friday nights with spartan being roughly 30 miles away from owosso. but an increase will help support the racers who in turn support the track, also that increase would most likely help the racer to afford to bring his/her family or friends to the track.

Also this is a class to learn in, and advance into the sportsman, mod, late model, Etc...... there are two things in this class that should be learned that translate to every class from pure stocks to nascar. the first thing is balancing your race car out. springs is how you do that. you need to learn what spring does this and how to make the car drivable. stock springs don't give you that ability without spending hundreds of dollars on springs at your local junk yard and buying a spring rate machine to know what rates you have, spring rate machines are 799.99 dollars from lane automotive. compared to 44.99 for springs from Day Motorsports. also by allowing racers to choose what springs they would like to run you've also allowed information sharing, a team that has more knowledge can help a struggling team by telling them what springs they should try. then that team has a good baseline to go from. Also all of the upper classes are allowed Spring Cup Adjusters, now i'm not saying we need them on all four corners. but a cup adjuster in the left rear would be of great help to allow a team to learn what cross does and help them a little more. a cup adjuster is 29.99 from Day Motorsports which isn't a large expense at all. this gives a person that is looking to move up the ladder more knowledge to make them fast right out of the gate. which can and will be a huge advantage when looking to move up the ranks. these changes can be done without sacrificing the entry level low cost aspect of the class.

as for ABC the pure stocks are to far behind the sportsman to even make it safe for us to run with them. the sportsman are allowed many more bars to strenthen the car and are 2 seconds faster than the pures at springport and 1.5 seconds faster at spartan. putting the pure stocks into an ABC class with the sportsman cars would be a mistake on the behalf of safety. not to mention killing your entry level class by making them run in the ABC. running in the ABC to run up front in the C or B main will require race tires. as seen on fun night with Ian Schafer race tires are a bolt on 3/4 of a second at spartan over the same car on the radials. eventually all cars that are capable of winning the B or C main will be on race tires. No one including myself wants to go out and ride around for 4th or 5th place.

Thanks,
Drake Racing
(Doug, Kyle, Spencer)
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Bardenracing42



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 334
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with almost everything the drakes said in the previous post with just a couple of exceptions.

First exception: Use spec carbs and intakes. This worked well when the old street stock class had the holly 4412 carb and the edelbrock performer (2101 I think??) intake. The argument against this is all the tweaks and cheats that can be done to the holley carb. That is true, but everyone starts with the same two hundred dollar carb, and the same cheap intake. people are going to tweak these parts regardless of what you start with, so it is still cheaper to cheat up a two hundred dollar carb versus cheating up a six hundred dollar carb.

Second exception: Kyle Drake and I have discussed the ABC class at length and respectfully disagree. I am all for it. The main flaw with Drakes argument (from my opinion) is that our current pure stocks would end up racing against the sportsmen. Because of where the A and B main would be split, most pures and sportsmen would not race head to head. I would see it as maybe the slowest sportsmen would be moved to the B main, but at that point their times are quite comparable to the quicker pure stocks.

One place where the Drakes were dead on was about TIRES!!!!!! The use of DOT street radials is one of the best cost cutting measures that we have seen in years exactly for the reason that Drake's post said; they are cheaper and last much, much longer.

Payout is a sticky issue. How do you spend money that isn't there? But, it is very hard to look at racing at Spartan/Springport and need to win to make the same money as third or fourth at Owosso. I just wouldn't want to be in management's shoes to handle this topic.

In summary, Drake's post has it just about right. I would only tweak just a couple small things and we have a situation where more people could race on a more leveled playing field (maybe for a little more money) in an environment where teching could be greatly simplified
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Bardenracing42



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 334
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

side note:

The Holley 4412s carb is listed at $270.00 at Advance auto parts

The Edelbrock dual plane performer 350-2101 is listed at $128 (non EGR) on the Jeg's online catalog.

My math adds up to around four hundred dollars (with tax, shipping, etc.) for the pair. In comparison, Holley carb part #0804961 (a four barrel carb) is listed at $715.00 at advance auto parts.

It doesn't have to be these specific part numbers, but using a spec carb/intake package can and will be a cost saver.
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allhailfaz13



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the thing on adding the weight to the 400's is that it was done last season and they still walked away from us and just look at fun night the guy who finished in 2nd had radial tires and was to weight and was only using the car for that one night that car was to dixies rules and it finished 2nd to the cars that had american racers on it. i talked to that guy bout the weight and them adding it and all it did was make them faster it helped them so if your going to add weight then make them put it in a spot that wont help them... just saying add 200 pounds isnt going to do anything when its a 355 aganst a 406 thats what they all run there and i dont know how you can let them run with us when our rules say 355 thats why when ever they came they just walked away from us... the other thing is make it more of a race i talked to alot of people who came on a regular basias and they said that they didnt watch the front car that was borning to c them win by 1/2 track they were watching the battle ferther back in the feild they thought that somthing needed to b done when everyone is racing for a 2nd or 3rd not a first or second......


thats just my opnion.. i want to just have some fun and not so much bull crap like last year..
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circle8track



Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, I have a couple issues here.

I think #1 is, Brian who has a $600 carb. You goto the junk yark grab a quadrajet, take it to a carb shop pay the $125 and you are set. No need to get a holley and a Edelbrock intake. If you want that stuff you need to race a sportsman.

#2, Springs should be Stock appearing. That way you learn how to set up a car with spring rates. No full blown race springs. No spring adjuster or screw jacks of any kind. To me in a Pure stock that is not needed.

#3. I don't know about you guys but the cast iron manifolds are way easier to find that the Aluminum ones. They only used the aluminum on Corvettes and some of the 305's of the 80's to the best of my knowledge. Everything else, E.I. trucks, caprices, monte carlo, etc., had the cast iron intake.

In my opinion our pure stocks are out of hand, mine included. When the class was created originally around here you could go get a stock caprices knock the windows out, put a cage in it and race. You would be just as fast as everyone else because that is what everyone had. Then you have guys pushing the envelope and little more, then a little more until you have a stock appearing sportsman.

The ABC thing is great, in theory!!!! You have to have at least 50 to 60 cars to ever make that work and lets face it, We Don't!!!

Street tires are great for the above reasons

Weight added to bigger engines is fine. But as Zack was saying the a 400 won by a half track. I don't know who it was but not meaning any disrespect but if it was an Auto City car, you guys have to under stand that a lot of those guys have been racing those one cars longer that the majority of Pure stocks driver have been racing period. It's not an insult, just once you have been in the same car for 3 years or even the same class you learn all the tricks and tweaks in the car, and behind if learn something behind the wheel. Plus alot of those guys have Limited late model, street stock and sportsman experience and they use that knowledge and technology in a pure stock.

Payout, The only thing I can say about the payout is that it needs to go through the field, when you get $125 to win and only $75 or $60 whatever it is for second is too big of a jump. It need to be kinda close so the whole field has a decent payout and it helps promote the class. I know if I had 5th place car at Spartan where I would get $40 and I could drive 30 minutes away and get $60 just for pulling on to the track and if I continued to be a top 5 car I could get a lot more I know where I would race at.
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allhailfaz13



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maybe even do a move up rule to keep it more fair like u win a championship or so many races in a row then you have to move up then its always a biginner class and then you wont have people go out there and walk away every year make them move up a class..
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Sortabigg



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Originally from Bath MI

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

allhailfaz13 wrote:
maybe even do a move up rule to keep it more fair like u win a championship or so many races in a row then you have to move up then its always a biginner class and then you wont have people go out there and walk away every year make them move up a class..


Ya, sounds good in theory, but most people don't have money to move up, especially if they're forced to. They might just goto another track.
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Bardenracing42



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 334
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI

PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

Sortabigg wrote:
allhailfaz13 wrote:
maybe even do a move up rule to keep it more fair like u win a championship or so many races in a row then you have to move up then its always a biginner class and then you wont have people go out there and walk away every year make them move up a class..


Ya, sounds good in theory, but most people don't have money to move up, especially if they're forced to. They might just goto another track.


Nor is the pure stock class intended to be a "beginner" class. It is an economy class for us non-wealthy folks who just wanna race.
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 2009 Pure Stock Rules Reply with quote

Drake Racing 14 28 wrote:
Jim you asked for our ideas and opinions about the 09 Pure Stock Rules and Class. So here are our ideas for the 09 pure stock rules.

Eliminate the Vacuum Rule, instead go with Cam Lift. Vacuum is to easily effected by many factors like Timing, Carb, Daily conditions, Gauges. Cam Lift is pretty straight forward, just remove a rocker arm off an intake and an exhaust push rod attach your dial indicator and turn the engine over.

Keep the Radial Tire. this is a HUGE advantage to the pure class, you rarely wear a tire completely out. in 07 and 08 the only time we had to replace a tire was when one was damaged. we got through the whole season on 7 tires. and getting those tires at 78 dollars a piece makes the tires of huge benefit.

Allow 400's and other engines to run with us. Place weight on 400's and take weight off of 327's, 305, etc.... weight penalty's and weight breaks will allow many cars to come and run. maybe 150 pounds on a 400, 350 gets to break even, and a 305 gets 150 pounds off. something along that line of thinking.

Next to Tech that rule it's absolutely critical that the track invest in an engine pump. this pump will not only help police the pure stocks it can be used in every class at the track. not only does the track need to buy a pump but they need to use it religiously. top 3 and 1 random. At the Owosso Nationals they pumped the street stocks to ensure that the 360+ CID engines were adding on the extra 100 pounds that they had to put on.

Also Put all of the rules in the book. example cast iron intake. we are supposed to have an cast iron intake, although it says no where in the rulebook that such an intake has to be put on. no one has a problem being teched on a rule as long as that rule is published in the rule book.

Aluminum Intakes, lets take a look at this rule. GM started putting aluminum intakes on all engines from 1975 up, to help combat the fuel crisis. this makes the aluminum intake plentiful. you can find an aluminum intake at every scrap/junk yard from here to California. If you would like to see the Intake Manifold Data Sheet i can send you the link. if you go into cats parts mart to look for an intake manifold you'll be hard pressed to find a usable cast iron intake but aluminum's are plentiful.

The intent of this class is to get new people into the sport. owosso was luring cars up there with payout. now i'm not saying we need to beat owosso's pay. but an increase would help offset the costs of building a car and getting to the track. as we all know the economy in this state and the whole nation isn't as strong as in years past. this leaves less disposable income to wanna be racer joe. a 25 dollar increase in pay across the board can help pay for fuel to get to the track. Owosso's regular night pay is something along the lines of 150 to win and 60 to start, if i'm wrong please correct me, i don't have a copy of the regular night pay i'm just going by what was paid when i went up there in august. maybe by increasing the pay we can also pull some owosso cars down to run on friday nights with spartan being roughly 30 miles away from owosso. but an increase will help support the racers who in turn support the track, also that increase would most likely help the racer to afford to bring his/her family or friends to the track.

Also this is a class to learn in, and advance into the sportsman, mod, late model, Etc...... there are two things in this class that should be learned that translate to every class from pure stocks to nascar. the first thing is balancing your race car out. springs is how you do that. you need to learn what spring does this and how to make the car drivable. stock springs don't give you that ability without spending hundreds of dollars on springs at your local junk yard and buying a spring rate machine to know what rates you have, spring rate machines are 799.99 dollars from lane automotive. compared to 44.99 for springs from Day Motorsports. also by allowing racers to choose what springs they would like to run you've also allowed information sharing, a team that has more knowledge can help a struggling team by telling them what springs they should try. then that team has a good baseline to go from. Also all of the upper classes are allowed Spring Cup Adjusters, now i'm not saying we need them on all four corners. but a cup adjuster in the left rear would be of great help to allow a team to learn what cross does and help them a little more. a cup adjuster is 29.99 from Day Motorsports which isn't a large expense at all. this gives a person that is looking to move up the ladder more knowledge to make them fast right out of the gate. which can and will be a huge advantage when looking to move up the ranks. these changes can be done without sacrificing the entry level low cost aspect of the class.

as for ABC the pure stocks are to far behind the sportsman to even make it safe for us to run with them. the sportsman are allowed many more bars to strenthen the car and are 2 seconds faster than the pures at springport and 1.5 seconds faster at spartan. putting the pure stocks into an ABC class with the sportsman cars would be a mistake on the behalf of safety. not to mention killing your entry level class by making them run in the ABC. running in the ABC to run up front in the C or B main will require race tires. as seen on fun night with Ian Schafer race tires are a bolt on 3/4 of a second at spartan over the same car on the radials. eventually all cars that are capable of winning the B or C main will be on race tires. No one including myself wants to go out and ride around for 4th or 5th place.

Thanks,
Drake Racing
(Doug, Kyle, Spencer)
you will notice that lots of guys want more money like owosso , the only way to give more money is more cars, go with owossos rules, vacuum works and i believe in valve lift and compression 450 lift, vacuum 15 inches in drive without turning the timing 150 pounds compression that would eliminate $350 cams, decked blocks for compression or dome pistons, not like the flint car that was torn down and had $700 ross pistons,$1000 callies crankshaft,$500 liteweight rods in a purestock. keep it simple . I know of 1 car that was not within the rules that was allowed to run that way. tech, tech, tech. but give the techs equiptment to check the cars, borescope, p&g or whistler , dial indicator guages. to find the cheaters and punish them .
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Gusey Racing



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 190
Location: Charlotte MI

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the link for Owosso's rules just in case anybody is interested.

http://www.owossospeedway.com/2008PureStocksVersion2.pdf
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84Dracing



Joined: 08 May 2008
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is funny how someone would say that a person at Auto City was torn down and that is what they had. 1st off the car was torn down, but not the lower end. He was found to have h-beam rods. That is all that was established. What is being said here is not entirely true. Yes he got caught, and lost his points and money for that, but all AC ever did was use the borescope to look in the distributor hole. That night they knew this car was outside of the rules, and they gave him a week to get it right so they pulled his heads and looked down the distributor hole. He was not DQd for crank, or pistons, but because hew had H-beam rods. Just becuase you heard something doesnt mean its true.
You guys think that these AC cars are so cheated up. Well most are not. We have some guys with money, and al ot of guys with a ton of experience, or at least people with a lot of experience helping them. This was my rookie season, and I ran alright at most places I ran, but mostly because we have built race cars my whole life and my dad is very very knowledgeable, and Dan Bailey is one of my best friends, and I had great help. Not because I had a 400 c.i. engine. You say 200lbs isn't enough! Well, I think its too much. A 400 isn't in most cases comparing two motors making anymore HP, but it will create more torque. I raced at Spartan this year and Kyle Drake kicked my butt with a 355, and 3 out of the top 5 at AC ran 355's. Every time I hear this stuff about slowing down 400s it upsets me. If you had one and didn't win but one feature all year, would you want someone saying lets slow this guy down? NO you wouldn't. Weight penalties should be used in cases where one guy is killing the field and no one can do anything about it. I would like to see Spartan allow 400's but not if I have to carry 200lbs on the right side to do so. The 2" exhaust rule hurts a 400 more than a 355, so 200lbs is just too much. I want to run Spartan because Dixie is not allowing 400's to run a 4bbl, but I would just buy the 2bbl if I have to add 200 to the right side. Just my opinion.

PS I run the aluminum intake. Its cheap and light, but doesn't flow as well as the cast version. I don't understand why it would not be legal. You can find them and are of no increased value for HP, just weight savings. Which these cars all pretty much add a lot of weight anyway.
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:09 pm    Post subject: 400 Reply with quote

Do you think that if the 400 wasnt a advantage so many people would want them.?
they are day and night different for torque you should know that from the big o remember the 1 or 2 nights that the 17 was untouchable?400 engine.
once you let in a 400 it becomes a 421 or 434. and a 400 should have to weight more we do in street stocks at the big o 100 pounds more with a 108 wheelbase car. the word is PURE STOCK keep it affordable so that anyone can be competetive, Claim the engines It works in IMCA hobby stocks a guy wont build a 1500 engine to lose it but if he can get a 750 engine and win the feature he will be ahead of the game.make them 305 engines with them all the same weight.and 1 final thing about the big motor from the east side I know more than you think i do about that engine and builder and that is all i am gonna say about that..
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NickJ



Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

allhailfaz13 wrote:
the thing on adding the weight to the 400's is that it was done last season and they still walked away from us and just look at fun night the guy who finished in 2nd had radial tires and was to weight and was only using the car for that one night that car was to dixies rules and it finished 2nd to the cars that had american racers on it. i talked to that guy bout the weight and them adding it and all it did was make them faster it helped them so if your going to add weight then make them put it in a spot that wont help them... just saying add 200 pounds isnt going to do anything when its a 355 aganst a 406 thats what they all run there and i dont know how you can let them run with us when our rules say 355 thats why when ever they came they just walked away from us... the other thing is make it more of a race i talked to alot of people who came on a regular basias and they said that they didnt watch the front car that was borning to c them win by 1/2 track they were watching the battle ferther back in the feild they thought that somthing needed to b done when everyone is racing for a 2nd or 3rd not a first or second......


thats just my opnion.. i want to just have some fun and not so much bull crap like last year..


for the record its an autocity car, it was the one i raced this past season... sorry i dont like dixie that much i just had to clearify. joe borrowed the car for the one night with the same setup that i had just ran the previous sunday show and finished in the top of the sunday feature as well. the car was only 2 weeks old, at that time.

as for the 400 vs. 350 debate... i can see some kind of penalty just to discourage people from building the 400, but having raced both motors, at spartan in some of the cars i ran there, i actually prefer the 350.

I agree with the Drake's 100% on this.
-lift not vacuum... too easy to cheat the vacuum system here, this only hurts the little guy who doesnt know any better.
-stock appearing springs, it just makes it easier for everyone, the new racer, the techs... everyone involved.
-radial tires.
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