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class revamp
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:25 pm    Post subject: class revamp Reply with quote

I beleive now is the time to start thinking about pony stock rules for next year.
there needs to be something in place to allow other brands to compete.
2.2 foreign single overhead cam 16 valve , ford probe, mazda, olds single overhead cam 2.3. 20+ chrysler products and4 Gm cars not much of a chance for any other brand to win .go to any dodge dealer and you will find oodles of performance parts available and nothing for GM or ford other than ford focus.honda toyota,nissan,mazda, and the likes can be found reasonable and are able to be made competetive without spending lots of cash.let there be options .just my thoughts now all you dodge guys can chime in and tell me how its a bad idea.oldgold
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Russ Potter



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Mason, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like the same old story, if Dodges are winning the Ford and GM guys will whine until they change the rules and make THEM dominate. Remember the Dodge Daytona and Plymouth Superbird of NASCAR fame? Not saying it is a bad idea, we should allow others to compete. Just reminding everyone how much things have not changed in 39 years.
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Dennis ONeil



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 423
Location: Eaton Rapids

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's see, we got almost a full field after all these years.
It must be about time to change the rules so that all of the current cars will become obsolete.
Maybe three or four really fast foreign cars could put on a show!
Chevy has dominated the racing world for years because they were the cheapest easiest car to run. Now that the Dodges have become the cheapest easiest cars to run in the 4 cylinder FWD class we better let some faster cars in to make the already too expensive class even more expensive.
There are a lot of cars in the rules that can be run that nobody has pursued.
Why? because of cost!
Let any FWD 4 cylinder run. Just put $1000.00 claim on all the cars in the class and cut the pay to zero. Then you will get 30 plus cars. And they will be affordable.
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Dennis ONeil



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 423
Location: Eaton Rapids

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres an even better idea!
Pay $2000 to win the pony feature!
Make it 50 laps!
Start up to 50 cars.
The winner loses his car to the track!
At the end of the year auction off all of the confiscated race cars and put the money in the point fund!
Maybe that would bring out some fresh blood?
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Dennis ONeil



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 423
Location: Eaton Rapids

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to statistics a few years ago an average racer will spend 8 times the actual "winners payout" on his car to have a chance at that payout.
A $70 to win class should have an average car worth about $560.
Instead, in racing lately it is more like 25-40 times the winners payout.
Should a claim of 10 times the winners payout be imposed on all classes to help keep the cost down?
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: class revamp Reply with quote

oldgold wrote:
I beleive now is the time to start thinking about pony stock rules for next year.
there needs to be something in place to allow other brands to compete.
2.2 foreign single overhead cam 16 valve , ford probe, mazda, olds single overhead cam 2.3. 20+ chrysler products and4 Gm cars not much of a chance for any other brand to win .go to any dodge dealer and you will find oodles of performance parts available and nothing for GM or ford other than ford focus.honda toyota,nissan,mazda, and the likes can be found reasonable and are able to be made competetive without spending lots of cash.let there be options .just my thoughts now all you dodge guys can chime in and tell me how its a bad idea.oldgold


The rules are just fine. Maybe we should change the Pure stock, Sportsman, Modified, and Late model rules to allow something other then a Chevy to run competetively. Maybe a weight break for a Chrysler vehicle. Maybe let the Fords run bigger motors? Yeah that sounds as silly as killing the strongest car count.

The simple fact is this. Neons are fast, that pisses people off that don't want to build one.

Last year a SATURN was the fastest car at Springport, thats right not a Dodge a Saturn. The only thing (AT THE TIME) that was illegal was it was a stickshift. He was running the right tires, had a 8 valve motor, and made our weight. He also was running through a muffler if I remember correctly.

The car that won the first 6 features last year at Springport? A Caviler. OMG A GM!!!! He was unbeatable until a failure happened and he didn't come back. He was running very very well at Spartan at an invite too until an accident put him in the wall.

If you want to go fast in something other then a Neon do your homework and put in the time and effort to build it right. A Caviler has the best ratio you can get for Springport in the trans. Figure out what you need as far as the gears and what not, put it in the trans and have a better motor then the Dodge boys. They have an awesome ratio for Spartan. Want to run there? Build that trans and run it. Want to run both? Get a Dodge or live with only one trans ratio.

Fords do not have the transfer gears like the Dodges do, GM's don't either. You have to tear the trans apart to get at them. That is why the Dodges were so popular to begin with. The "oodles" of performance parts from the dealer? Oh please you can get that stuff for the GM's. The Fords you used to but not for currently legal motors. If your buying all the "mopar" performance stuff your getting ripped off. There is PLENTY of options in the aftermarket which will do the same or better for less money. The exact same thing exists in the GM world.

You don't have to spend loads of cash to make any pony fast. You need to do your homework, set the car up, and put in lots of time. If you want to simply bolt one together and go fast then move up a class.

I really truly do want you to build a Probe. There are about 3 guys who feel this is "THE" car to build to take on the Neons. BUILD IT!!!! I will be right there at the tech barn arguing to let it in. UNDER ONE CONDITION!!! When you are getting stomped in by Neons/Dodges there is not ONE bitch/moan/whine/complaint about losing and or the rules being unfair.

There are PLENTY of options from the GM camp and the Ford camp that are 100% legal under the rules. Maybe finding the diamond in the rough is probably what you should be doing instead of trying to get the rules opened up so far.

My only other question is this. Why does it bother you personally so much that the Neons are winning and you want to allow the other cars? Are you personally going to build one for the class? Is it because Dans car isn't as fast as the fastest Neons?

I hope it's not for Dan's sake. He runs very well on a normal night at Spartan. If I remember right a 3rd place finish a week or two ago? At Springport his transmission doesn't have the ideal ratio and he's down on power. He turns as well as almost any Neon at both tracks.
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:05 am    Post subject: yogi Reply with quote

give me a price on what it cost you dodges to go so fast?
dont even go the route that we have to do more homework
you can only do so very little with the brand GM that we chose to race.
If we had 32 more horsepower we could go lots faster, but we dont and cant without spending large sums of money. we talked about a cnc-ed head, ross pistons, eagle rods just to make more horsepower but couldnt justify the $4500 to be able to make the same horsepower as a neon.
since my brother works at a dodge dealership he could get any neon performance part up to and including a 8400 rpm rev chip for a neon.that stuff is not available for gm unless its Quad 4.
I am a gm guy and would like to stay that way . i raced fords in the 60s thru 80s and won many features but the cost to stay fast was way to expensive. i have my own sportsman car and only help dan on his.and try to make it faster. we have done all the spring,alignment, bumpsteer, rearaxle alignment that can be done and now need more horsepower.would anyone object if we put a neon drivetrain in our cavalier? Laughing
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Sortabigg



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Originally from Bath MI

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: hahaha Reply with quote

No thats what I'm talking about Pops! Put a neon motor in a Cavy!
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Dennis ONeil



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 423
Location: Eaton Rapids

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First let me say that I do not endorse any post that anyone other then myself makes on here. The members of ONeil Racing speak for themselves.
With that said the Neons that I see in my shop and at the track are fast because of work not dollars. All the engines are stock. I think the key might be that they corner very well. Independent rear suspension seems to be a big plus.
When it comes to making non Neons faster than Neons I guess you would need to talk to the Conroy's who ran very fast Cavilears and Pinky Scavarda who ran very fast Dodge Shadows.
I would be in favor of allowing other cars in as long as it does not make all of the existing cars obsolete prematurely. The Neons are making the non Neon racers feel like they need Neons to compete. I believe that Neons have won every Feature this year at SMS. This is not the best thing for the long run of the class. Affordable racing has to be affordable. The rules need to keep the playing field level. When one particular model dominates a lot of the others will spend more and more to try and compete.
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: yogi Reply with quote

oldgold wrote:
give me a price on what it cost you dodges to go so fast?
dont even go the route that we have to do more homework
you can only do so very little with the brand GM that we chose to race.
If we had 32 more horsepower we could go lots faster, but we dont and cant without spending large sums of money. we talked about a cnc-ed head, ross pistons, eagle rods just to make more horsepower but couldnt justify the $4500 to be able to make the same horsepower as a neon.
since my brother works at a dodge dealership he could get any neon performance part up to and including a 8400 rpm rev chip for a neon.that stuff is not available for gm unless its Quad 4.
I am a gm guy and would like to stay that way . i raced fords in the 60s thru 80s and won many features but the cost to stay fast was way to expensive. i have my own sportsman car and only help dan on his.and try to make it faster. we have done all the spring,alignment, bumpsteer, rearaxle alignment that can be done and now need more horsepower.would anyone object if we put a neon drivetrain in our cavalier? Laughing


Price? In my fathers 3 time feature winning car (which has gone as fast as 19.5 btw) we have less then $2000. That includes the purchase price of the car, a new motor (132k mile shortblock with the same untouched head) a new trans, new control arms, ball joints, tie rod ends, front struts, front sway bar hardware, pipe for the seat mount, rub rail bars, steering column mounts, steering shaft, steering quick release, steering wheel, seat, belts, gauges, switches.

We actually could have saved a lot of money by building a car we bought gutted. The car we have needed built from the ground up basically. You can feel free to look over ANY part of that car, and I mean ANY part. If you can find something that is not stock or a stock replacement I will give you $100. Seat, belts, and steering column not withstanding. If you find nothing you give me $100. Sound simple enough?

My personal car I have less then $1300 into. That includes the headgasket kit, timing belt, water pump, and purchase price. I am running 19.9's at Springport and with my very sticky "cheater" tires ($136 dollars off EBAY btw not 4/6/800 dollars) went 16.4 at the last Spartan invite. It will be much faster soon as I will be setting up the suspension.

It is NOT money like you are hinting at that is making our cars fast. Not by a long shot. In fact I would bet the budget for the 55 Cavi is as big or bigger then the budget for the #79 Neon.

Your gm brand can go faster then our Neon already has. Last year Darren Bohne went 19.4 seconds during a race. He actually consistently went 19.4 during the races. We have hit 19.5 a couple of laps. There was a *GASP* Caviler last year that won the first SIX features. He beat many Neons.

The Neon STOCK has 32 more hp. When you figure your putting a 1.5 inch exhaust over the 2.25 stock pipe it isn't 132 anymore. The pipe we put on is worth 2 tenths or MORE a lap. This has been proven. If your going to spend $4500 on a 4 cylinder GM motor then I'm sorry you have no idea how to make HP out of one. I know plenty of guys with Cavilers on the street who have fully built forged motors making 200+ whp who don't have $4500 on the entire drivetrain. They have $1100 axles also.

I would also like to point out that there is actually very little for a first generation Neon left for Mopar performance parts. You can no longer get the springs, the "hot" camshaft is a stock 95 cam, and the other "hot" parts are basically the pcm. Which btw either your brother either does not know what he's talking about or is lying to you. The Neon pcm NEVER and I repeat NEVER has had a "chip" in it. There has been ONE person who has successfully gotten a Neon pcm "chiped" and he lives in Argentina. There has NEVER and I repeat NEVER been a Neon PCM that has been available with a 8400 rpm "chip". There was/is a company making pcms for Neons with an 8100 limit. HOWEVER that limit has not been available for almost 10 years. Now the limit is 7800. That PCM btw is NOT available by any Dodge dealer. The options for a GM pcm are much MUCH better with the EPROM availability/ the "chip".

It is flat out simple why our Neons are fast and why the other Neons who run up front are fast. We have personally put over 200 MAN hours into my fathers car. It has been basically rebuilt from the ground up with ALL stock parts. Every aspect of that car has been touched. Edson Rowleys car is wicked fast because he puts an insane amount of work in it. How many drivers do you see working on their cars between the heat and feature when there is no damage? I know of 2 one is me the other is Edson.

Anyone who wishes to run a GM/Caviler simply needs to figure out the proper gear ratio for the track they want and run it. If they would like to run at more then one track then they will have to compromise. That is GM's design flaw. Not Dodge for doing it better. The GM's actually have the superior transmission ratios but they do not fare "that" well at multiple tracks.

I do have to say that you obviously don't fare too poorly at Spartan with Dan's car. In fact he's gotten 1 or 2 wins if I remember correctly and I know he ran door to door with Edson a few weeks ago. That race he finished third. In that race 1st was a Neon, 2nd a Shadow, 3rd a Caviler and then 4th through 11th was a Neon. That race also it seemed to me that the Caviler was not beat on the straightaways but some uber high horsepower Neon but in the corners by a car and driver that could turn better.

Seems like a Caviler can beat Neons to me.
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Team Beacon
Never Dead Racing
2010 and 2011 Pony stock Track Champion
15.23 Fastest FWD lap ever at Spartan on fun night.
15.872 Fastest pony stock lap during the season.
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Sortabigg



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Originally from Bath MI

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:52 pm    Post subject: blah Reply with quote

BLAH BLAH BLAH....all we wanted to find out is there anyway to allow any other cars in this class. THIS cavalier is as fast as it will go. You are some long winded folks! lol
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torg38



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a perfect example why we have 3 race ready ponies sitting in shop. once you start to win, Everyone starts whining. Instead of looking to change the rules maybe people should ask for help.

There's many people that would be very willing to answer any question you have.

So instead of throwing knives at ford/dodge/chevy ask around an talk to people that have allready made there car fast. Mg
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

torg38 wrote:
This is a perfect example why we have 3 race ready ponies sitting in shop. once you start to win, Everyone starts whining. Instead of looking to change the rules maybe people should ask for help.

There's many people that would be very willing to answer any question you have.

So instead of throwing knives at ford/dodge/chevy ask around an talk to people that have allready made there car fast. Mg


This is almost exactly the point I'm trying to make.

There are fast cars for a reason. The guys running up front will run up front REGARDLESS of the make/model as they do the most work and homework typically.
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Team Beacon
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2010 and 2011 Pony stock Track Champion
15.23 Fastest FWD lap ever at Spartan on fun night.
15.872 Fastest pony stock lap during the season.
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:06 am    Post subject: cars Reply with quote

Dennis ONeil wrote:
First let me say that I do not endorse any post that anyone other then myself makes on here. The members of ONeil Racing speak for themselves.
With that said the Neons that I see in my shop and at the track are fast because of work not dollars. All the engines are stock. I think the key might be that they corner very well. Independent rear suspension seems to be a big plus.
When it comes to making non Neons faster than Neons I guess you would need to talk to the Conroy's who ran very fast Cavilears and Pinky Scavarda who ran very fast Dodge Shadows.
I would be in favor of allowing other cars in as long as it does not make all of the existing cars obsolete prematurely. The Neons are making the non Neon racers feel like they need Neons to compete. I believe that Neons have won every Feature this year at SMS. This is not the best thing for the long run of the class. Affordable racing has to be affordable. The rules need to keep the playing field level. When one particular model dominates a lot of the others will spend more and more to try and compete.
thank you dennis put very well. now on another note some of the dodge boys seem to forget the scavarda episode i remember LOTS of crying at that time because of that 200?+ hp motor that was bought from BFE and was $3500 or some ungodly figure and we couldnt win. now its the gm guys who if theydont want to be in a neon need to do there home work Bull-spit. it should be any driver can win in any car.we feel we are out motored by design 6100 is max for 2.2 gm. PCM can be altered IF 1996 or newer and only have rev limit moved to 6500 and timing altered. we run 92 ,we are stuck. we could run a 2.3 single over headcam engine at 150 hp but this division is stock not altered stock. Shocked

Last edited by oldgold on Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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oldgold



Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:12 am    Post subject: performance Reply with quote

torg38 wrote:
This is a perfect example why we have 3 race ready ponies sitting in shop. once you start to win, Everyone starts whining. Instead of looking to change the rules maybe people should ask for help.

There's many people that would be very willing to answer any question you have.

So instead of throwing knives at ford/dodge/chevy ask around an talk to people that have allready made there car fast. Mg
already talked to conroy. now i will ask you how can we pickup about 25 horsepower?
tryed more compression, have max lift and duration cam available for that year,largest,exaust manifold and intake, changed injectors to better flowing ones NOW what.
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