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Circus Rules ?

 
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:24 am    Post subject: Circus Rules ? Reply with quote

This is more of a question then a comment, and it follows on the heels of another comment I saw in the old forum that never went addressed.

And I don't know who this should be aimed at, those on the track or those running the tracks.. but there certainly seems to be a wide disparity in the way the races are run depending on the series.

When the Supers are out there, if one even gets side ways, the yellow flag come out.. if one bumps another they yellow flag comes out.. We saw this on August 18th when 14 yellow flags were thrown in one Super race.

When the ponies run, if there isn't a completely disabled car in the middle of the track, the yellow doesn't come out. On August 23rd, you had two cars completely side ways and one car facing on-coming traffic doing a u-turn in the middle of 3 & 4 and no yellow came out.

Why is that ?

I realize that Pony is entry level and there is steep learning curve and there fore more incidental contact then the other divisions, but it foster's a circus atmosphere and seems to me it encourages rough driving when its let go.
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Jim B



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 120
Location: Mason

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a guess on my part, but maybe it has something to do with average mph. A super covers the 1/4 mile alot faster than a pony, therefore they need as much time as possible to slow down. The flagman can't wait as long to see if the situation will correct itself before the rest of the field is upon it.

It upsets me that the flagmen don't display the yellow enough for the ponies also.... I love subtracting 5 points from you guys/gals Razz
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Jerry Garland



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 145

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick,

I have been yelling about the yellow flag not being thrown alot as well, if not the black flag. I raced for the first time this year this past friday.

The funny part about racing this friday was that Donny (the flagman) finally decided he wanted to talk to the drivers about ruff driving? I had to laugh at this because there are only two races left and the points battles are raging (which really amps up the drivers by the way) but he wanted to talk to the drivers about ruff driving now? HELLO? flagman you should have been throwing the yellow and the black flag a long time ago!! not threaten the drivers with two weeks to go in a season. And one of the main reasons he brought up the ruff driving was due to the crowd yelling at him for not making a call with the flags!!!
The second thing I had to laugh at was that he made a comment about helping us drivers fix our cars after tearing them up? Well I have news for you. Donny hasnt been to Ken Dollarhites house lately to help him rebuild his car after he piled it into the wall!! (ken or donny, just chime in if I am wrong)

But I can't put all the blame on the flagman, Patrick some of the calls made are from your head official Gary fedewa. He apparantly can see the track conditions better than our flagman. I know this due to listening to the officials during the race on my scanner. So not all calls are determined by the flagman. But!!! the flagman is the guy watching the race action and he does have his hands on the FLAGS!! maybe just maybe they will start allowing the flagman to be a flagman in 2007 or replace him with one that will.


Jerry Garland
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry, please don't put words in my mouth... I'm not assigning blame to the flagman. I think some personal responsibility needs to be exercised also by the guys behind the wheels. Now -- that being said, I think that when drivers are allowed to go all season undisiplined, then things start to get out of hand. I know that #99 got a pretty stern talking awhile back and has been a much better driver. And I think the #3 got sent a message also and has taken his driving to another level also (Congrats to GW on the Checked Flag also). But other drivers have gotten a free pass "to my knowledge" and it is my opinion they have gotten progressively rougher. What happen to the #38 car after the checkered flag a few weeks ago should have resulted in a suspension. Maybe if that had happen, then what happen to the #350 would not have occured. But it didn't. And then when the #350 got taken out, nothing happen again, so why would anyone act different. Just my opinion.
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Dennis ONeil



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 423
Location: Eaton Rapids

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know I've always liked the Circus. In fact the "Circus Rules"! Back in the day, the Kestenholtz family had clowns at the race track to entertain the crowd during breaks in the racing action. They even rolled over the clown car one night. Luckily no one was hurt, but that sort of signaled the end of professional clowns at the races. Now all we have is racers that act the clown, but I guess it is a niche that needs to be filled.
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Throwing a yellow flag has become a very tough call for the flagmen during the Pony Stock races. In many cases, the driver (or drivers) do not want the flag to be thrown. Why? Because if they cause a caution, they get 5 points deducted.

Let's take a scenario where two cars are involved in a spin. In many cases, these two drivers know who caused the spin. And then in some cases, each driver thinks the other driver is at fault or they are not really sure. In any case, they really don't know how the call will be made after the yellow is thrown.

Because of this, you may have noticed that in most cases, the Pony Stock drivers try their best to get their cars straightened out to keep going, hoping that the yellow isn't thrown and a judgement call made against them.

Therefore, if safety is not an issue, the flagmen might not wave the yellow if it looks like the drivers are not in harm's way and are getting going again.

-Maurice
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KT



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 144

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is exactly why the rule about deducting 5 points is stupid. I laughed at it when it was first put in and I'm still laughing. I personally think it is one of the dumbest rules at Spartan. Thankfully I'm on a street stock team and don't have to worry about that rule, unless it is implemented in the street stocks next year.

As for the yellow flag being thrown in the pony class, I would say the reason drivers try to straighten it out is because they know the flag probably won't be thrown. I've watched this class since the beginning and have noticed numerous times that the yellow was not thrown for a car that had spun out.
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John Conroy



Joined: 29 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This year a number of times the flagman and spotters have been over ruled. I think as a driver you're more worried about getting slammed because the yellow wasn't thown. Safety has been a issue, such as water on the track. This mind set of letting the ponys { RUN IN WHAT YOU BRUNG} is going to get one of us hurt. I would rather give up 5 points than a busted bone. Beings actions speak louder than words, it appears that the ponystock drivers' safety isn't a very big concern. Stan Perry, Dan Long, Gator Williams, Russ Potter, John Conroy we all have family and friends to go home to at the end of the night and therefore, we should all be afforded the same level of safety on the track.


Just my opinion. John Confused
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Dennis ONeil



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you think the new two caution rule will have any effect on the amount of yellows?
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Conroy wrote:
This year a number of times the flagman and spotters have been over ruled.

Actually, Gary has been letting the flagmen call the shots except for when Gary himself has seen what has happened while everyone else has missed it.

Quote:
...is going to get one of us hurt.

I can't think of anyone who has gotten hurt this year. As far as I know, I'm the only one who has gotten hurt and I'm not even driving.

-Maurice
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Jerry Garland



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 145

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually, Gary has been letting the flagmen call the shots except for when Gary himself has seen what has happened while everyone else has missed it.


Maurice,

so are you telling everyone now that the flagman let the water stay on the track or gary made the call with letting the water stay on the track? during that feature that had a car dump his cooling system all over the track, you and keith both said gary made the call for NO yellow? so which is it?.

Jerry
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you and keith both said gary made the call for NO yellow? so which is it?.


Made a call for "NO" yellow? Nobody made a call for NO yellow. That would be implying that someone got on the radio and said "don't throw the yellow!"

You guys expect me to come up with all the answers for everything that goes on at the track. I'm pretty good at doing this most of the time, and I can sometimes form my own opinions. Sometimes, I just can't provide the answers you are looking for, however, because I don't always have the answers.

What happened to Ken when he hit the wall was very unfortunate. That was not a case of a yellow not being thrown, but maybe more a case of the situation on the track surface not being determined quickly enough.

Jerry, at what point did you realize there was a problem on the track, before or after Ken crashed? And how about everyone else sitting in the pit stands? Were they all standing up and pointing towards turn 4 to indicate there was a problem on the track? Did they all see the water before or after Ken crashed? Get my point?

I hope Ken can get his (second) new car built and running well for the 2007 season.

-Maurice
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Jerry Garland



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 145

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
at what point did you realize there was a problem on the track
Ummm!! when John Conroy and I pointed to you and keith in turn two and the car was dumping water in the feature. and you and keith acknowledged the problem.


we are apparantly talking about two different races. you the heat where ken crashed and me the feature where no one crashed but safety was of the concern due to cars sliding all over.


either way its over, Just I and other pony drivers would like to see the yellow once in a while if not the black flag.

thanks

Jerry
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